Deny yourself and take up your Cross
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Hi, TLC209, if your church doesn't preach repentance then it isn't a biblical church, the biblical gospel includes the call to repent (to turn from sin to God through Jesus Christ)
Are you saying that your church doesn't include repentance in there preaching and teaching? if so this is very bad and you should confront the Elders with an Open Bible, perhaps this passage would be a great place to bring to there attention:
Acts 20:20-21 how I did not shrink from declaring to you anything that was profitable, and teaching you in public and from house to house, 21 testifying both to Jews and to Greeks of repentance toward God and of faith in our Lord Jesus Christ.
Also the bible doesn't teach that you have to forsake everything and everyone to be saved.... that seems very extreme and legalistic, please show me a verse
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BTW the Rich Young Ruler couldn't be saved because he wouldn't repent of his love of money, he wouldn't give up the idol on his heart, it was keeping him from Jesus and Jesus was after his heart.
He had an unrepentant heart and was also trying to be good enough to get to heaven, hence Jesus said to him: There is none good but God, aka no one to get to heaven through works of righteousness. So he was both unrepentant and also trying to achieve eternal life through being good, which is a false gospel.
The bible teaches that to be saved you must turn to God from sin through Jesus Christ alone as the basis of that turn, that you must forsake your sin to God through Jesus Christ. (btw there is no perfect repentance, repentance is a turning from sin and embracing Christ alone for salvation, it varies from person to person)
This is what you said in the above comment: "We must DENY OURSELVES AND THAT INCLUDES EVERYTHING AND EVERYONE. If you havent done that, you havent repented yet. And if you havent repented theres no way you can have the Holy Spirit"
Your comment here sounds a bit dangerous and i would say not intune with biblical repentance, please explain a bit more if you would
I think its important to note, that the repentance that is unto eternal life is a grace centered repentance, the cross alone turns us from sin to God and we are to respond to that gospel, to repent and be saved, aka turn from sin to God through Christ Alone.
I hope this helps you and i hope you bring repentance into that church, Acts 20:20-21 is a great place to start.
Are you saying that your church doesn't include repentance in there preaching and teaching? if so this is very bad and you should confront the Elders with an Open Bible, perhaps this passage would be a great place to bring to there attention:
Acts 20:20-21 how I did not shrink from declaring to you anything that was profitable, and teaching you in public and from house to house, 21 testifying both to Jews and to Greeks of repentance toward God and of faith in our Lord Jesus Christ.
Also the bible doesn't teach that you have to forsake everything and everyone to be saved.... that seems very extreme and legalistic, please show me a verse
.BTW the Rich Young Ruler couldn't be saved because he wouldn't repent of his love of money, he wouldn't give up the idol on his heart, it was keeping him from Jesus and Jesus was after his heart.
He had an unrepentant heart and was also trying to be good enough to get to heaven, hence Jesus said to him: There is none good but God, aka no one to get to heaven through works of righteousness. So he was both unrepentant and also trying to achieve eternal life through being good, which is a false gospel.
The bible teaches that to be saved you must turn to God from sin through Jesus Christ alone as the basis of that turn, that you must forsake your sin to God through Jesus Christ. (btw there is no perfect repentance, repentance is a turning from sin and embracing Christ alone for salvation, it varies from person to person)
This is what you said in the above comment: "We must DENY OURSELVES AND THAT INCLUDES EVERYTHING AND EVERYONE. If you havent done that, you havent repented yet. And if you havent repented theres no way you can have the Holy Spirit"
Your comment here sounds a bit dangerous and i would say not intune with biblical repentance, please explain a bit more if you would
I think its important to note, that the repentance that is unto eternal life is a grace centered repentance, the cross alone turns us from sin to God and we are to respond to that gospel, to repent and be saved, aka turn from sin to God through Christ Alone.
I hope this helps you and i hope you bring repentance into that church, Acts 20:20-21 is a great place to start.
Sorry I have had to reply to your whole post because for some reason I can't reply to the section below.
It reads for me that you are saying that in order to be saved (I'm assuming when you accept Jesus as Lord) then you to turn away from sin?
Can you clarify this for me please?
In your response you quoted the passage: Acts 26:18 I am sending you to them to open their eyes, so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’
How do you suppose someone turns from darkness to light? By merely believing and having faith? No sir. It means we turn from sin. Means we walk in obedience and refuse sin. Means this has to do with our conduct.
The saved by grace doctrine is a doctrine I reject and denounce. Scripture is heavy on God requiring our obedience. Whether in OT and NT God is always the same and requires obedience. Jesus didnt change that He enforced it.
The reason Man has FALLEN is due to Adams DISOBEDIENCE. The very nature of sin is DISOBEDIENCE. You can have all the "faith" in the world but if your works show otherwise it will expose you. True faith has works that you can see 1.) love 2.) obedience 3.) perserverance.
Youre indoctrinated by a doctrine that doesnt hold water. We wont be able to go any further if this is the case. We cant be hung up on passages of faith, salvation, and grace. We must cling to what Jesus taught us. All those passages you quote allign with what Jesus taught. But the doctrine you quote contradicts what Jesus taught. And that is to deny yourself and do the will of the Father. Just because Jesus died for us doesnt give us a free pass to not have to obey Him.
Hebrews 5:7 While Jesus was here on earth, he offered prayers and pleadings, with a loud cry and tears, to the one who could rescue him from death. And God heard his prayers because of his deep reverence for God. 8 Even though Jesus was God’s Son, he learned obedience from the things he suffered. 9 In this way, God qualified him as a perfect High Priest, and he became the source of eternal salvation for all those who obey him.
Does this say all those who believe? All who have faith? Clearly it says all who OBEY HIM. Time and time again scripture teaches we must obey. If we love Him we will obey Him. Faith, love, obedience, and belief all work together hand in hand. You must have all these characteristics. Its not just faith. Faith alone is dead. Its not just faith and obedience. Without love faith is nothing. Its not just obedience, good works will never save anyone for that the person cannot boast of themselves. You cant just love God and have faith because if you do not love your brother which is a command then you are not in obedience, how can you say you love God. You cannot simply believe even the demons believe, God says anyone who does not obey the Son of God remains under Gods angry wrath. You cannot believe in order to be set or "saved". Thats false doctrine.
Henceforth these all work hand in hand and all go together. You cannot seperate the Word of God to fit our own interpretation. God cannot be changed. His Word cannot be altered to fit some man made doctrine. God bless you.
How do you suppose someone turns from darkness to light? By merely believing and having faith? No sir. It means we turn from sin. Means we walk in obedience and refuse sin. Means this has to do with our conduct.
The saved by grace doctrine is a doctrine I reject and denounce. Scripture is heavy on God requiring our obedience. Whether in OT and NT God is always the same and requires obedience. Jesus didnt change that He enforced it.
The reason Man has FALLEN is due to Adams DISOBEDIENCE. The very nature of sin is DISOBEDIENCE. You can have all the "faith" in the world but if your works show otherwise it will expose you. True faith has works that you can see 1.) love 2.) obedience 3.) perserverance.
Youre indoctrinated by a doctrine that doesnt hold water. We wont be able to go any further if this is the case. We cant be hung up on passages of faith, salvation, and grace. We must cling to what Jesus taught us. All those passages you quote allign with what Jesus taught. But the doctrine you quote contradicts what Jesus taught. And that is to deny yourself and do the will of the Father. Just because Jesus died for us doesnt give us a free pass to not have to obey Him.
Hebrews 5:7 While Jesus was here on earth, he offered prayers and pleadings, with a loud cry and tears, to the one who could rescue him from death. And God heard his prayers because of his deep reverence for God. 8 Even though Jesus was God’s Son, he learned obedience from the things he suffered. 9 In this way, God qualified him as a perfect High Priest, and he became the source of eternal salvation for all those who obey him.
Does this say all those who believe? All who have faith? Clearly it says all who OBEY HIM. Time and time again scripture teaches we must obey. If we love Him we will obey Him. Faith, love, obedience, and belief all work together hand in hand. You must have all these characteristics. Its not just faith. Faith alone is dead. Its not just faith and obedience. Without love faith is nothing. Its not just obedience, good works will never save anyone for that the person cannot boast of themselves. You cant just love God and have faith because if you do not love your brother which is a command then you are not in obedience, how can you say you love God. You cannot simply believe even the demons believe, God says anyone who does not obey the Son of God remains under Gods angry wrath. You cannot believe in order to be set or "saved". Thats false doctrine.
Henceforth these all work hand in hand and all go together. You cannot seperate the Word of God to fit our own interpretation. God cannot be changed. His Word cannot be altered to fit some man made doctrine. God bless you.
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Thats "saved" doctrine. The Word of God has many scriptures that show the way is Jesus Christ. While "saved" doctrine relies on 3 scriptures. Ephesians 2:8 is the other one. That "saved" doctrine is false. Those who follow Christ live for Christ. Their lives belong to Him and they do the will of God. These are CHRISTIANS.
1 John 2:3 And we can be sure that we know him if we obey his commandments. 4 If someone claims, “I know God,” but doesn’t obey God’s commandments, that person is a liar and is not living in the truth. 5 But those who obey God’s word truly show how completely they love him. That is how we know we are living in him. 6 Those who say they live in God should live their lives as Jesus did.
1 John 2:3 And we can be sure that we know him if we obey his commandments. 4 If someone claims, “I know God,” but doesn’t obey God’s commandments, that person is a liar and is not living in the truth. 5 But those who obey God’s word truly show how completely they love him. That is how we know we are living in him. 6 Those who say they live in God should live their lives as Jesus did.
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Im saying im against all these false men of God who teach the flock an easy watered down way to be saved. The saved doctrine that we all were taught in church. That is all false. Its so basic and watered down that if you dont dig in scripture and you rely on that doctrine you could find yourself in hell. The true gospel requires that we REPENT! Thats the first step... there are many more after that. We are to make disciples and discipleship is hard work. Its not easy giving up our old lives that we have known to love and become accustomed to. People wont even give up santa claus... smh
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Well its clear that TLC209, is most likely not of God.... unless he comes out of his false doctrine.... there is every reason to believe he is a false convert.
Paul's warning is strong for those who reject the grace of God for salvation, here are his words from the bible:
Galatians 1:8-9 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.
To reject salvation via faith alone, is to reject the gospel itself, and ofcourse that true saving faith brings forth fruit! TLC rejects salvation by grace through faith though, in his own words he said "salavtion is a reward"
Paul's warning is strong for those who reject the grace of God for salvation, here are his words from the bible:
Galatians 1:8-9 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.
To reject salvation via faith alone, is to reject the gospel itself, and ofcourse that true saving faith brings forth fruit! TLC rejects salvation by grace through faith though, in his own words he said "salavtion is a reward"
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Yea they come out the woodwork. Theyre reprobates. I still hope one day God opens their eyes. I wouldnt say the things I say if I didnt feel they need the TRUTH. But they reject the truth. And when they do this there is consequences.
Romans 13:2 Therefore he who resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of him who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, 4 for he is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain; he is the servant of God to execute his wrath on the wrongdoer.
John 8:47 Anyone who belongs to God listens gladly to the words of God. But you don’t listen because you don’t belong to God.”
Jude 10 But these people scoff at things they do not understand. Like unthinking animals, they do whatever their instincts tell them, and so they bring about their own destruction. 11 What sorrow awaits them! For they follow in the footsteps of Cain, who killed his brother. Like Balaam, they deceive people for money. And like Korah, they perish in their rebellion.
12 When these people eat with you in your fellowship meals commemorating the Lord’s love, they are like dangerous reefs that can shipwreck you. They are like shameless shepherds who care only for themselves. They are like clouds blowing over the land without giving any rain. They are like trees in autumn that are doubly dead, for they bear no fruit and have been pulled up by the roots. 13 They are like wild waves of the sea, churning up the foam of their shameful deeds. They are like wandering stars, doomed forever to blackest darkness.
Romans 13:2 Therefore he who resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of him who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, 4 for he is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain; he is the servant of God to execute his wrath on the wrongdoer.
John 8:47 Anyone who belongs to God listens gladly to the words of God. But you don’t listen because you don’t belong to God.”
Jude 10 But these people scoff at things they do not understand. Like unthinking animals, they do whatever their instincts tell them, and so they bring about their own destruction. 11 What sorrow awaits them! For they follow in the footsteps of Cain, who killed his brother. Like Balaam, they deceive people for money. And like Korah, they perish in their rebellion.
12 When these people eat with you in your fellowship meals commemorating the Lord’s love, they are like dangerous reefs that can shipwreck you. They are like shameless shepherds who care only for themselves. They are like clouds blowing over the land without giving any rain. They are like trees in autumn that are doubly dead, for they bear no fruit and have been pulled up by the roots. 13 They are like wild waves of the sea, churning up the foam of their shameful deeds. They are like wandering stars, doomed forever to blackest darkness.
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Exactly, no one is denying repentance (at least i am not), if a person doesn't repent they can't be saved, this is because the gospel has come to save us from our sin to God, repentance is according to grace and goes hand in hand with faith.
I like what you said, God justifies us, he sanctifies us and he glorifies us.
Yet TLC209 says "Salvation is a Reward" hes preaching a gospel of works salvation, instead of holiness through the gospel alone.
The Gospel brings Holiness always TLC209, but its the gospel that does that, it's a message of grace and salvation to hell deserving sinners alone, who have no merit and repentant of there sins and place there trust in Christ.
Anyone that rejects this gospel is condemned by Paul into hell:
Galatians 1:8-9 Galatians 1:8-9 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.
TLC209 if your reading this, do you agree with what i just said, or do you follow a different gospel?
I like what you said, God justifies us, he sanctifies us and he glorifies us.
Yet TLC209 says "Salvation is a Reward" hes preaching a gospel of works salvation, instead of holiness through the gospel alone.
The Gospel brings Holiness always TLC209, but its the gospel that does that, it's a message of grace and salvation to hell deserving sinners alone, who have no merit and repentant of there sins and place there trust in Christ.
Anyone that rejects this gospel is condemned by Paul into hell:
Galatians 1:8-9 Galatians 1:8-9 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again: If anyone is preaching to you a gospel contrary to the one you received, let him be accursed.
TLC209 if your reading this, do you agree with what i just said, or do you follow a different gospel?
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TLC209, you also said this in your above post:
"You cannot believe in order to be set or "saved". Thats false doctrine. "
Really? well, the reality is your preaching a different gospel:
Romans 1:16 directly contradicts what you just said!
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile.
If i was you id turn back to the gospel and not go on a path to potential hell.
"You cannot believe in order to be set or "saved". Thats false doctrine. "
Really? well, the reality is your preaching a different gospel:
Romans 1:16 directly contradicts what you just said!
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile.
If i was you id turn back to the gospel and not go on a path to potential hell.
Not exactly Brother Bill (they both occur simultenously in salvation, yes they occur at the same time), i will give you some more clarification:
To be saved a person must repent, they must turn away from sin, they must forsake their sins and be reconciled to God through Jesus Christ.
Here is some examples from the bible itself:
Isaiah 55:7 let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; let him return to the LORD, that he may have compassion on him, and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
As you can see when a person repents^, they also believe^, can you see that in the above verse?
Notice in the above verse, the sinners turns and forsakes his sin and at the same time embraces God's pardon in faith, he receives God's salvation, as a gift he can't deserve, he is forgiven
What does this mean? it means that Repentance and Faith go together always in the bible, they are to be seen in organic conjunction/union, they are joined together.
Here is some more verses about repentance unto life (from Jesus himself):
Luke 13:3 No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.
So Repentance implies Faith and Faith implies Repentance in the bible, so when someone believes on Jesus for salvation, they have also repented, they go together.
So when a person believes, they also are repenting and if a person is repenting, they also are believing freely for salvation.
This is why the bible teaches both, because they are linked together.
So to answer your original question: They are turned away from sin the moment they believe, as one implies the other and vice versa.
In conversion, repentance and faith happen at the exact same time.
If your seeing this right, then you won't view them as a contradiction, repentance and faith are not contradictory things, AKA one does not destroy or nullify the other and vice versa, neither are they against each other.
To be saved a person must repent, they must turn away from sin, they must forsake their sins and be reconciled to God through Jesus Christ.
Here is some examples from the bible itself:
Isaiah 55:7 let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; let him return to the LORD, that he may have compassion on him, and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.
As you can see when a person repents^, they also believe^, can you see that in the above verse?
Notice in the above verse, the sinners turns and forsakes his sin and at the same time embraces God's pardon in faith, he receives God's salvation, as a gift he can't deserve, he is forgiven
What does this mean? it means that Repentance and Faith go together always in the bible, they are to be seen in organic conjunction/union, they are joined together.
Here is some more verses about repentance unto life (from Jesus himself):
Luke 13:3 No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.
So Repentance implies Faith and Faith implies Repentance in the bible, so when someone believes on Jesus for salvation, they have also repented, they go together.
So when a person believes, they also are repenting and if a person is repenting, they also are believing freely for salvation.
This is why the bible teaches both, because they are linked together.
So to answer your original question: They are turned away from sin the moment they believe, as one implies the other and vice versa.
In conversion, repentance and faith happen at the exact same time.
If your seeing this right, then you won't view them as a contradiction, repentance and faith are not contradictory things, AKA one does not destroy or nullify the other and vice versa, neither are they against each other.
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Oh, I only read the first page and now I'm seeing something of an altercation going on here.
You do understand that obeying Yeshua (Jesus) is having faith right? If you didn't have faith that he was who he says he is...why would you obey him? You can't do anything apart from faith and without faith it is impossible to please the Lord (unless you want to reject what Hebrews says on the matter, which I presume is not your intent). You are also not even mentioning the process of sanctification...righteous living is a practical matter and takes maturation/pruning/refinement etc. etc.
It seems you are conflating faith and "belief". I feel as though they are different, and I would encourage you to separate the two before going further. Anyone can "believe" in something (you mentioned Santa for instance). I don't have the inclination to offer my own separation of the two at present, because you have to first make the distinction between worldly belief and faith...which takes a bit of time for me and I'm still practically discerning the difference.
Faith is a work you are correct. It is an action...however it is NOT something you do to "have faith". I would strongly argue that it is a gift of the father (see Romans 12:3-8) as this says that each one is given a measure. That measure is given through and via his grace.
Certainly we are stewards of faith and I see it as something like a trust fund myself at times (but each person's understanding should necessarily be somewhat different due to different giftings). How you walk by faith I believe will be called into account someday, not for condemnation, but something like a review (consider the parable of the talents). IF of course, you were living by faith in the first place, and didn't just believe in a fairy tale "I'll carry your cross and you into heaven you do what you want in the meantime" Distortion of MT 16:24-26. Anyone that would claim to follow Christ...well...it's pretty clear.
I really don't think anyone is pushing unlimited grace and that open rebellion to the word of the Lord is alright and so long as you believe in Jesus that he nailed all your sins past/present/future you can do whatever you want and you can sort of throw away those pesky verses in many other places in scripture that say quite the opposite and are indeed dire warnings for an unrepentant heart and the Jude verse about "twice dead, doubly uprooted..." sums it up well.
So take sustenance in that...All of us do need carrying at times, consider the walk to Golgotha/Calvary. Some of us are more aware of our weakness made strength than others. I don't fault anyone for that and I thank the Lord for opening my eyes to how each relationship is unique and different. Not division and dissention, but diversity
You do understand that obeying Yeshua (Jesus) is having faith right? If you didn't have faith that he was who he says he is...why would you obey him? You can't do anything apart from faith and without faith it is impossible to please the Lord (unless you want to reject what Hebrews says on the matter, which I presume is not your intent). You are also not even mentioning the process of sanctification...righteous living is a practical matter and takes maturation/pruning/refinement etc. etc.
It seems you are conflating faith and "belief". I feel as though they are different, and I would encourage you to separate the two before going further. Anyone can "believe" in something (you mentioned Santa for instance). I don't have the inclination to offer my own separation of the two at present, because you have to first make the distinction between worldly belief and faith...which takes a bit of time for me and I'm still practically discerning the difference.
Faith is a work you are correct. It is an action...however it is NOT something you do to "have faith". I would strongly argue that it is a gift of the father (see Romans 12:3-8) as this says that each one is given a measure. That measure is given through and via his grace.
Certainly we are stewards of faith and I see it as something like a trust fund myself at times (but each person's understanding should necessarily be somewhat different due to different giftings). How you walk by faith I believe will be called into account someday, not for condemnation, but something like a review (consider the parable of the talents). IF of course, you were living by faith in the first place, and didn't just believe in a fairy tale "I'll carry your cross and you into heaven you do what you want in the meantime" Distortion of MT 16:24-26. Anyone that would claim to follow Christ...well...it's pretty clear.
I really don't think anyone is pushing unlimited grace and that open rebellion to the word of the Lord is alright and so long as you believe in Jesus that he nailed all your sins past/present/future you can do whatever you want and you can sort of throw away those pesky verses in many other places in scripture that say quite the opposite and are indeed dire warnings for an unrepentant heart and the Jude verse about "twice dead, doubly uprooted..." sums it up well.
So take sustenance in that...All of us do need carrying at times, consider the walk to Golgotha/Calvary. Some of us are more aware of our weakness made strength than others. I don't fault anyone for that and I thank the Lord for opening my eyes to how each relationship is unique and different. Not division and dissention, but diversity
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