Describe OSAS in terms of this passage.....

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Lightskin

Lightskin

Well-known member
#141
Aug 16, 2019
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#141
Chris1975 said:
Matthew 18
21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.
23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.
29 And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
31 So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.
32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.


  • So let’s try get everybody on the same page. Can we all agree that Peter is a believer?
  • Can we agree that Peter is included in the Kingdom of God (because he is a believer)
  • Can we all agree that what Jesus answers next, as well as in the parable that follows, is the Lord’s response to a question by a believer, as to how often he (Peter) should forgive?
  • Jesus answers him and says seventy times seven. So basically unending. Continue to forgive.
Assuming we are on the same page up to this point, let’s go further and into the parable that follows.
  • We have a King and a Kingdom. This can be seen in parable terms as Jesus and His Kingdom
  • We have a subject of the kingdom (a servant) who owed the king a huge debt (v23). In parable terms we as his subjects had a huge debt (sin)
  • The subject pleaded for the Kings mercy (prayer, repentance, faith) (v26)
  • The loving King has mercy and compassion, and wiped clean the debt (v27). In parable terms this is the Lord forgiving our sins. This is included in the Lord’s Grace.
  • Can we agree up to this point that the only those who have come to Christ, and pleaded for mercy have received the Lords grace, and the forgiveness of sins. I am not aware of the unbelievers sin being washed clean, only the believers sin. It’s no use saying this servant is “not really” a servant or subject of the king. Because he truly has had his debt wiped clean.
  • In parable terms, the servant is already in the kingdom, and the servant has had his sins washed clean.
So far so good. Let’s not forget that Jesus is still answering Peter’s question (Peter being a servant of the King in the kingdom)
  • Now we see that same servant whose debt was cleared, go out and demand that another fellowservant pay him an even smaller amount owed to him, and when he could not, was thrown into prison. In parable terms, this is exactly the same as a Christian who has had such great sins forgiven by the Lord, but yet unwilling to extend the same mercy, forgiveness and grace to a fellow servant.
  • And we see the end result of what that got this servant. Once the King hear about what happened, he REINSTATED the debt that was due on the first servant. What was forgiven, WAS NO LONGER FORGIVEN.
  • And we end off with the last verse, verse 35, which states the following: 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

So lets bring this back to OSAS doctrine, and whether this holds water. We can see from the above that this entire answer is in in direct relation to the question of a believer (Peter). And verse 35 is ALSO directed to Peter specifically, as well as all believers generally. Could Peter’s sins also be re-imputed to him if he, after having received forgiveness, had not the graces to extend this to his fellow man?
I bring back the original questions.
  • Was Peter a believer? Yes.
  • Is this parable applicable to Peter, as well as others? Yes.
  • Should Peter forgive others? Yes
  • What happens to Peter should he refuse to forgive (remember he is a believer)?
  • Should you perhaps reconsider the OSAS doctrine?
Click to expand...
Your entire premise is false. Jesus was answering Peter in general terms, not specifically towards Peter himself.

Jesus teaches us not to take grace for granted but rather embrace it, respect it and cherish it for what it is worth.

As previously stated early in your thread. The one who forgives receives more blessings than the one who was forgiven. Jesus obviously knows this hence why he stresses for us to forgive others.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#145
#145
Matthew 12:31
[ The Unpardonable Sin ] “Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men.

last I read, the sin of not forgiving falls under ever sin, which Jesus himself said will be forgiven
 
Chris1975

Chris1975

Senior Member
#146
Apr 27, 2017
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#146
19 When such a person hears the words of this oath and they invoke a blessing on themselves, thinking, “I will be safe, even though I persist in going my own way,” they will bring disaster on the watered land as well as the dry. 20 The Lord will never be willing to forgive them; his wrath and zeal will burn against them. All the curses written in this book will fall on them, and the Lord will blot out their names from under heaven. 21 The Lord will single them out from all the tribes of Israel for disaster, according to all the curses of the covenant written in this Book of the Law.


22 Your children who follow you in later generations and foreigners who come from distant lands will see the calamities that have fallen on the land and the diseases with which the Lord has afflicted it. 23 The whole land will be a burning waste of salt and sulfur—nothing planted, nothing sprouting, no vegetation growing on it. It will be like the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, Admah and Zeboyim, which the Lord overthrew in fierce anger. 24 All the nations will ask: “Why has the Lord done this to this land? Why this fierce, burning anger?”


25 And the answer will be: “It is because this people abandoned the covenant of the Lord, the God of their ancestors, the covenant he made with them when he brought them out of Egypt. 26 They went off and worshiped other gods and bowed down to them, gods they did not know, gods he had not given them. 27 Therefore the Lord’s anger burned against this land, so that he brought on it all the curses written in this book. 28 In furious anger and in great wrath the Lord uprooted them from their land and thrust them into another land, as it is now.”


29 The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may follow all the words of this law.
 
Chris1975

Chris1975

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Apr 27, 2017
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#147
James 5
19 My brothers and sisters, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring that person back, 20 remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins.
 
inukubo

inukubo

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Jun 27, 2019
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#148
One thing OP has overlooked -- If you believe you can lose your salvation, the writer of Hebrews states that it is impossible to get it back again. There is no hopping back and forth in and out of the family of God. So your only viable options are OSAS, or "One and Done."

4 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt. (Hebrews 6:4-6)
 
G

Guojing

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Jan 12, 2019
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inukubo said:
One thing OP has overlooked -- If you believe you can lose your salvation, the writer of Hebrews states that it is impossible to get it back again. There is no hopping back and forth in and out of the family of God. So your only viable options are OSAS, or "One and Done."

4 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt. (Hebrews 6:4-6)
Click to expand...
I find that, people who believe we can lose our salvation, don't include themselves in that group.

Simply put, they think that so long as someone tries "his best" to follow Jesus commandments, and keep short accounts with God by confessing and repenting if they sin, they consider that good enough.
 
G

Grandpa

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Jun 24, 2011
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Chris1975 said:
19 When such a person hears the words of this oath and they invoke a blessing on themselves, thinking, “I will be safe, even though I persist in going my own way,” they will bring disaster on the watered land as well as the dry. 20 The Lord will never be willing to forgive them; his wrath and zeal will burn against them. All the curses written in this book will fall on them, and the Lord will blot out their names from under heaven. 21 The Lord will single them out from all the tribes of Israel for disaster, according to all the curses of the covenant written in this Book of the Law.


22 Your children who follow you in later generations and foreigners who come from distant lands will see the calamities that have fallen on the land and the diseases with which the Lord has afflicted it. 23 The whole land will be a burning waste of salt and sulfur—nothing planted, nothing sprouting, no vegetation growing on it. It will be like the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, Admah and Zeboyim, which the Lord overthrew in fierce anger. 24 All the nations will ask: “Why has the Lord done this to this land? Why this fierce, burning anger?”


25 And the answer will be: “It is because this people abandoned the covenant of the Lord, the God of their ancestors, the covenant he made with them when he brought them out of Egypt. 26 They went off and worshiped other gods and bowed down to them, gods they did not know, gods he had not given them. 27 Therefore the Lord’s anger burned against this land, so that he brought on it all the curses written in this book. 28 In furious anger and in great wrath the Lord uprooted them from their land and thrust them into another land, as it is now.”


29 The secret things belong to the Lord our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may follow all the words of this law.
Click to expand...
Galatians 3:13-14
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.


This is why we have a New Covenant. The Old Covenant was broken and abandoned because the Law could not perfect anyone.

Romans 8:1-4
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Do you see the difference between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant here? It was very important for us to have a Saviour that could do the Work of Blessing us through the Law because we couldn't earn those blessings ourselves.

Working at the law, and trying to earn the blessings of God, is walking after the flesh. Faith in Christ and Receiving the blessings of God as His Gift is part of walking in the Spirit. A pretty big part.

These two ways are opposed to each other. You can't do both.

Matthew 6:30-33
30 Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith?
31 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?
32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.
33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

Romans 10:3-4
3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Galatians 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
 
Chris1975

Chris1975

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Apr 27, 2017
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#151
Grandpa said:
Galatians 3:13-14
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.


This is why we have a New Covenant. The Old Covenant was broken and abandoned because the Law could not perfect anyone.

Romans 8:1-4
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Do you see the difference between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant here? It was very important for us to have a Saviour that could do the Work of Blessing us through the Law because we couldn't earn those blessings ourselves.

Working at the law, and trying to earn the blessings of God, is walking after the flesh. Faith in Christ and Receiving the blessings of God as His Gift is part of walking in the Spirit. A pretty big part.

These two ways are opposed to each other. You can't do both.

Matthew 6:30-33
30 Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith?
31 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?
32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.
33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

Romans 10:3-4
3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Galatians 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Click to expand...
Just as Israel broke the old covenant trough unrepentant sin, so to can the Church break with the new covenant with unrepentant sin. Here is what the new covenant entails:

Lets look at some of the scriptures specifically dealing with the new covenant we have in Christ, now that the old covenant has been done away with:

Ezekiel 36v26-27
[SUP]26 [/SUP]I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. [SUP]27 [/SUP]I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.

Jeremiah 31v31-34
[SUP]31 [/SUP]“Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— [SUP]32 [/SUP]not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them,[SUP][a][/SUP] says the Lord. [SUP]33 [/SUP]But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. [SUP]34 [/SUP]No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

Hebrews 10v16-39
[SUP]16 [/SUP]“This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them,”[SUP][c][/SUP] [SUP]17 [/SUP]then He adds, “Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”[SUP][d][/SUP] [SUP]18 [/SUP]Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin. [SUP]19 [/SUP]Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus, [SUP]20 [/SUP]by a new and living way which He consecrated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh, [SUP]21 [/SUP]and having a High Priest over the house of God, [SUP]22 [/SUP]let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. [SUP]23 [/SUP]Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful. [SUP]24 [/SUP]And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, [SUP]25 [/SUP]not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.[SUP]26 [/SUP]For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, [SUP]27 [/SUP]but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. [SUP]28 [/SUP]Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. [SUP]29 [/SUP]Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? [SUP]30 [/SUP]For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,”[SUP][e][/SUP] says the Lord.[SUP][f][/SUP] And again, “The Lord will judge His people.”[SUP][g][/SUP] [SUP]31 [/SUP]It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. [SUP]32 [/SUP]But recall the former days in which, after you were illuminated, you endured a great struggle with sufferings: [SUP]33 [/SUP]partly while you were made a spectacle both by reproaches and tribulations, and partly while you became companions of those who were so treated; [SUP]34 [/SUP]for you had compassion on me[SUP][h][/SUP] in my chains, and joyfully accepted the plundering of your goods, knowing that you have a better and an enduring possession for yourselves in heaven.[SUP][i][/SUP] [SUP]35 [/SUP]Therefore do not cast away your confidence, which has great reward. [SUP]36 [/SUP]For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise:
[SUP]37 [/SUP]“For yet a little while,
And He[SUP][j][/SUP] who is coming will come and will not tarry.
[SUP]38 [/SUP]Now the[SUP][k][/SUP] just shall live by faith;
But if anyone draws back,
My soul has no pleasure in him.”[SUP][l][/SUP]
[SUP]39 [/SUP]But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.


What can we glean from the above scriptures?

What God does/fulfills:
-new heart
-new spirit
-law in our minds
-write the law on our hearts
-He will be our God
-He will forgive our iniquities
-He will remember our sins no more
-cleansing our conscience
-our bodies washed with pure water
-faithfulness towards us

What we do/fulfill:
-keeping his statutes, judgements, doing them
-We will be His people
-we will know Him
-we are to draw near to God
-have faith / believe
-live by faith
-hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering
-love one another
-good works
-fellowship with believers
-exhorting one another
-enduring confidence
-doing the will of God

Breaking covenant:


  • Willfully sinning
  • Drawing back
 
Chris1975

Chris1975

Senior Member
#152
Apr 27, 2017
2,492
517
113
#152
Grandpa said:
Galatians 3:13-14
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.


This is why we have a New Covenant. The Old Covenant was broken and abandoned because the Law could not perfect anyone.

Romans 8:1-4
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Do you see the difference between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant here? It was very important for us to have a Saviour that could do the Work of Blessing us through the Law because we couldn't earn those blessings ourselves.

Working at the law, and trying to earn the blessings of God, is walking after the flesh. Faith in Christ and Receiving the blessings of God as His Gift is part of walking in the Spirit. A pretty big part.

These two ways are opposed to each other. You can't do both.

Matthew 6:30-33
30 Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith?
31 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?
32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.
33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

Romans 10:3-4
3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Galatians 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Click to expand...
Lets look at some of the scriptures specifically dealing with the new covenant we have in Christ, now that the old covenant has been done away with:

Ezekiel 36v26-27
26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.

Jeremiah 31v31-34
31 “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

Hebrews 10v16-39
16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them 17 then He adds, “Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”18 Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin. 19 Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way which He consecrated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh, 21 and having a High Priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful. 24 And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, 25 not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The Lord will judge His people.”31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. 32 But recall the former days in which, after you were illuminated, you endured a great struggle with sufferings: 33 partly while you were made a spectacle both by reproaches and tribulations, and partly while you became companions of those who were so treated; 34 for you had compassion on me in my chains, and joyfully accepted the plundering of your goods, knowing that you have a better and an enduring possession for yourselves in heaven.35 Therefore do not cast away your confidence, which has great reward. 36 For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise:
37 “For yet a little while,
And He who is coming will come and will not tarry.
38 Now the just shall live by faith;
But if anyone draws back,
My soul has no pleasure in him.”
39 But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.


What can we glean from the above scriptures?

What God does/fulfills:
-new heart
-new spirit
-law in our minds
-write the law on our hearts
-He will be our God
-He will forgive our iniquities
-He will remember our sins no more
-cleansing our conscience
-our bodies washed with pure water
-faithfulness towards us

What we do/fulfill:
-keeping his statutes, judgements, doing them
-We will be His people
-we will know Him
-we are to draw near to God
-have faith / believe
-live by faith
-hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering
-love one another
-good works
-fellowship with believers
-exhorting one another
-enduring confidence
-doing the will of God

Breaking covenant:


  • Willfully sinning
  • Drawing back
 
G

Grandpa

Senior Member
#153
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
3,190
113
#153
Chris1975 said:
Lets look at some of the scriptures specifically dealing with the new covenant we have in Christ, now that the old covenant has been done away with:

Ezekiel 36v26-27
26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.

Jeremiah 31v31-34
31 “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

Hebrews 10v16-39
16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them 17 then He adds, “Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”18 Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin. 19 Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way which He consecrated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh, 21 and having a High Priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful. 24 And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, 25 not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The Lord will judge His people.”31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. 32 But recall the former days in which, after you were illuminated, you endured a great struggle with sufferings: 33 partly while you were made a spectacle both by reproaches and tribulations, and partly while you became companions of those who were so treated; 34 for you had compassion on me in my chains, and joyfully accepted the plundering of your goods, knowing that you have a better and an enduring possession for yourselves in heaven.35 Therefore do not cast away your confidence, which has great reward. 36 For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise:
37 “For yet a little while,
And He who is coming will come and will not tarry.
38 Now the just shall live by faith;
But if anyone draws back,
My soul has no pleasure in him.”
39 But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.


What can we glean from the above scriptures?

What God does/fulfills:
-new heart
-new spirit
-law in our minds
-write the law on our hearts
-He will be our God
-He will forgive our iniquities
-He will remember our sins no more
-cleansing our conscience
-our bodies washed with pure water
-faithfulness towards us

What we do/fulfill:
-keeping his statutes, judgements, doing them
-We will be His people
-we will know Him
-we are to draw near to God
-have faith / believe
-live by faith
-hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering
-love one another
-good works
-fellowship with believers
-exhorting one another
-enduring confidence
-doing the will of God

Breaking covenant:


  • Willfully sinning
  • Drawing back
Click to expand...
What you have incorrectly interpreted as what we have to do is REALLY what we Receive in Christ. You have turned Grace and the Blessings of God on their head and made them something you must earn by works.

Working at the law, and trying to earn the blessings of God, is walking after the flesh. Faith in Christ and Receiving the blessings of God as His Gift is part of walking in the Spirit. A pretty big part.


You are stuck at working for the Grace of God instead of Receiving the Grace of God. Lots of people are stuck there. They have traded the whole Law of Moses for their own law that they have picked and chosen as their favorites and what they imagine will make themselves righteous.


If God remembers sin no more how does sin cause the New Covenant to break? (It can't)

The New Covenant isn't even really something that can be broken by people. The New Covenant is more a Statement made by God telling us what He Will Do.

He Will put His Laws and His Statutes in our hearts and minds.

He Will CAUSE us to walk in them.

He Will give us the Gift of Salvation and everything that goes with that. (there's a lot).

I can't convince you of all this. I can only tell you about it.


Romans 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.


What happens when you go about trying to establish your own righteousness? Making up rules that you have to fulfill in order to be in Covenant with God?

It means you are ignorant of Gods Righteousness. You don't understand yet that it is Given and not earned.

That is how Salvation works. It is given, not earned.

That is how Grace works. It is given, not earned.

That is how Righteousness works. It is given, not earned.


Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Rest from working for Salvation.
Rest from working for Righteousness.
Rest from working at the law to be blessed of God.
 
Chris1975

Chris1975

Senior Member
#154
Apr 27, 2017
2,492
517
113
#154
Grandpa said:
What you have incorrectly interpreted as what we have to do is REALLY what we Receive in Christ. You have turned Grace and the Blessings of God on their head and made them something you must earn by works.

Working at the law, and trying to earn the blessings of God, is walking after the flesh. Faith in Christ and Receiving the blessings of God as His Gift is part of walking in the Spirit. A pretty big part.


You are stuck at working for the Grace of God instead of Receiving the Grace of God. Lots of people are stuck there. They have traded the whole Law of Moses for their own law that they have picked and chosen as their favorites and what they imagine will make themselves righteous.


If God remembers sin no more how does sin cause the New Covenant to break? (It can't)

The New Covenant isn't even really something that can be broken by people. The New Covenant is more a Statement made by God telling us what He Will Do.

He Will put His Laws and His Statutes in our hearts and minds.

He Will CAUSE us to walk in them.

He Will give us the Gift of Salvation and everything that goes with that. (there's a lot).

I can't convince you of all this. I can only tell you about it.


Romans 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.


What happens when you go about trying to establish your own righteousness? Making up rules that you have to fulfill in order to be in Covenant with God?

It means you are ignorant of Gods Righteousness. You don't understand yet that it is Given and not earned.

That is how Salvation works. It is given, not earned.

That is how Grace works. It is given, not earned.

That is how Righteousness works. It is given, not earned.


Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Rest from working for Salvation.
Rest from working for Righteousness.
Rest from working at the law to be blessed of God.
Click to expand...

OK I will do the cross references for you below. There is the part God brings, and the part we bring. Clearly spelled out.

Lets look at some of the scriptures specifically dealing with the new covenant we have in Christ, now that the old covenant has been done away with:

Ezekiel 36v26-27
26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.

Jeremiah 31v31-34
31 “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

Hebrews 10v16-39
16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them 17 then He adds, “Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”18 Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin. 19 Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way which He consecrated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh, 21 and having a High Priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful. 24 And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, 25 not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The Lord will judge His people.”31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. 32 But recall the former days in which, after you were illuminated, you endured a great struggle with sufferings: 33 partly while you were made a spectacle both by reproaches and tribulations, and partly while you became companions of those who were so treated; 34 for you had compassion on me in my chains, and joyfully accepted the plundering of your goods, knowing that you have a better and an enduring possession for yourselves in heaven.35 Therefore do not cast away your confidence, which has great reward. 36 For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise:
37 “For yet a little while,
And He who is coming will come and will not tarry.
38 Now the just shall live by faith;
But if anyone draws back,
My soul has no pleasure in him.”
39 But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.


What can we glean from the above scriptures?

What God does/fulfills:
-new heart Ezekiel 36v26
-new spirit Ezekiel 36v26
-law in our minds Hebrews 10v16
-write the law on our hearts Hebrews 10v16
-He will be our God Jeremiah 31v33
-He will forgive our iniquities Jeremiah 31v34
-He will remember our sins no more Jeremiah 31v34
-cleansing our conscience Hebrews 10v22
-our bodies washed with pure water Hebrews 10v22
-faithfulness towards us Hebrews 10v23

What we do/fulfill:
-keeping his statutes, judgements, doing them Ezekiel 36v27
-We will be His people Jeremiah 31v33
-we will know Him Jeremiah 31v34
-we are to draw near to God Hebrews 10v22
-have faith / believe Hebrews 10v22
-live by faith Hebrews 10v22
-hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering Hebrews 10v23
-love one another Hebrews 10v24
-good works Hebrews 10v24
-fellowship with believers Hebrews 10v25
-exhorting one another Hebrews 10v25
-enduring confidence Hebrews 10v35 and 10v36
-doing the will of God Hebrews 10v36 (maybe just read Hebrews 10v36 again until you see it).

Breaking covenant:

  • Willfully sinning Hebrews 10v26-31
  • Drawing back Hebrews 10v38
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#155
Jan 13, 2016
17,152
3,697
113
#155
Chris1975 said:
OK I will do the cross references for you below. There is the part God brings, and the part we bring. Clearly spelled out.

Lets look at some of the scriptures specifically dealing with the new covenant we have in Christ, now that the old covenant has been done away with:

Ezekiel 36v26-27
26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.

Jeremiah 31v31-34
31 “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord. 33 But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

Hebrews 10v16-39
16 “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them 17 then He adds, “Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”18 Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin. 19 Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way which He consecrated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh, 21 and having a High Priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. 23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful. 24 And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, 25 not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The Lord will judge His people.”31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. 32 But recall the former days in which, after you were illuminated, you endured a great struggle with sufferings: 33 partly while you were made a spectacle both by reproaches and tribulations, and partly while you became companions of those who were so treated; 34 for you had compassion on me in my chains, and joyfully accepted the plundering of your goods, knowing that you have a better and an enduring possession for yourselves in heaven.35 Therefore do not cast away your confidence, which has great reward. 36 For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise:
37 “For yet a little while,
And He who is coming will come and will not tarry.
38 Now the just shall live by faith;
But if anyone draws back,
My soul has no pleasure in him.”
39 But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.


What can we glean from the above scriptures?

What God does/fulfills:
-new heart Ezekiel 36v26
-new spirit Ezekiel 36v26
-law in our minds Hebrews 10v16
-write the law on our hearts Hebrews 10v16
-He will be our God Jeremiah 31v33
-He will forgive our iniquities Jeremiah 31v34
-He will remember our sins no more Jeremiah 31v34
-cleansing our conscience Hebrews 10v22
-our bodies washed with pure water Hebrews 10v22
-faithfulness towards us Hebrews 10v23

What we do/fulfill:
-keeping his statutes, judgements, doing them Ezekiel 36v27
-We will be His people Jeremiah 31v33
-we will know Him Jeremiah 31v34
-we are to draw near to God Hebrews 10v22
-have faith / believe Hebrews 10v22
-live by faith Hebrews 10v22
-hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering Hebrews 10v23
-love one another Hebrews 10v24
-good works Hebrews 10v24
-fellowship with believers Hebrews 10v25
-exhorting one another Hebrews 10v25
-enduring confidence Hebrews 10v35 and 10v36
-doing the will of God Hebrews 10v36 (maybe just read Hebrews 10v36 again until you see it).

Breaking covenant:

  • Willfully sinning Hebrews 10v26-31
  • Drawing back Hebrews 10v38
Click to expand...
Every single passage you’ve posted here is about the nation of Israel and the covenant God made with them. This covenant will come in full reality at His second coming. None of these verses have the Church in mind.
 
Chris1975

Chris1975

Senior Member
#156
Apr 27, 2017
2,492
517
113
#156
John146 said:
Every single passage you’ve posted here is about the nation of Israel and the covenant God made with them. This covenant will come in full reality at His second coming. None of these verses have the Church in mind.
Click to expand...
Wow you are really off target here. So you are saying none of this belongs to the Church? Book of Acts Holy Spirit coming down and filling the people is not related to the above? I would, if I were you give this a serious rethink.

Secondly, Paul wrote Hebrews (Hebrews 13v22-24), yet Paul was a minister to the Gentiles. How do you reconcile this?

To say that all of this will only come at Jesus' second coming? Really?
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#157
Jan 13, 2016
17,152
3,697
113
#157
Chris1975 said:
Wow you are really off target here. So you are saying none of this belongs to the Church? Book of Acts Holy Spirit coming down and filling the people is not related to the above? I would, if I were you give this a serious rethink.

Secondly, Paul wrote Hebrews (Hebrews 13v22-24), yet Paul was a minister to the Gentiles. How do you reconcile this?

To say that all of this will only come at Jesus' second coming? Really?
Click to expand...
I didn’t see a quote from Acts. Ezekiel and Jeremiah are Jewish prophets to Israel concerning their promised kingdom. Hebrews, well the name gives it away. Hebrews is to the Jews in the last days, Hebrews 1:2.

Paul wrote Hebrews? Where’s the proof? Maybe, maybe not. What I do know is that Paul always starts his letters with his name attached.
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#158
Jan 13, 2016
17,152
3,697
113
#158
Chris1975 said:
Lets look at some of the scriptures specifically dealing with the new covenant we have in Christ, now that the old covenant has been done away with:
Click to expand...
All these passages have the house of Israel all through them. The Church is not the house of Israel, spiritual Israel, lost sheep, or Jacob. We are the body of Christ.
 
G

garee

Banned
#159
Mar 28, 2016
15,954
1,528
113
#159
John146 said:
All these passages have the house of Israel all through them. The Church is not the house of Israel, spiritual Israel, lost sheep, or Jacob. We are the body of Christ.
Click to expand...
All Israel is not born again Israel as the bride of Christ. Some remain as Jacob un-converted, faithless. . No help from God within. We are the bride of Christ the church made up of many lively stones as the spiritual house, the house of Israel, or the house of Christians, the new name he name his bride in Acts. He is the invisible head of her. body
 
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