Election 101

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TheDivineWatermark

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#21
Aug 3, 2018
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#21
TheDivineWatermark said:
"having predestined us unto 'son-placement' [divine-adoption-OF-SONS]"... (which is not the same kind of "adoption" WE think of, where a child outside of the family is brought into your family... but where the "full-grown-son [of one's own]" is bestowed the "full rights to act in his father's name" which is what Jesus had [note the words of the Father at His/Jesus' baptism]... and we have in a LEGAL/positional sense [ONLY by means of our "connection with Christ"] the moment we are "born [born-again/-from-above]" even as "new-born babes in Christ"--that is, in a LEGAL/positional sense... that is never severed... and which will be operative in a fuller sense once Romans 8:23 takes place [at "our Rapture" point in time])... So this is "eternal" and not a temporary, "iffy" thing. ;) PERMANENT.
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Just to add to that ^ :

"having foreordained [to predetermine, foreordain] us to 'the adoption of sons [G5206 - huiothesian ('son-placement')]' through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will" Eph1:5

...which I believe is related to what is stated in Romans 8:23 (though we possess it in a LEGAL/POSITIONAL sense, even *NOW*), which says, "And not only so, but also we ourselves, having the first-fruit of the Spirit, we also ourselves in ourselves do groan, adoption [G5206 - huiothesian] expecting/awaiting -- the redemption of our body" (which I believe is related to what is said in Rev12:5, "And she brought forth a male [G730 -arsen/arren] son [G5207 - huion], who is about to shepherd all the nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up [G726 - hērpasthē/harpazo] to God, and to His throne" and where v.13 said, "[the woman] which HAD BROUGHT FORTH the male [G730 - arsena/arren]" (i.e. HAD BROUGHT FORTH being "past tense" from this mid-trib point in the chronology; note: no word "child" is in THIS verse, v.13)]

IOW, I believe this is why Paul said (to "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY"/same persons ^ at top)… in Romans 16:20, "And the God of peace will crush/bruise Satan UNDER YOUR FEET *IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]*" (the same "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time period that IS the "future" aspects of the Revelation, FROM 4:1 TO [7-yrs later-]Rev19/His "RETURN" to the earth; and the same time period as the "AVENGE *IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]*" of Lk18:8 [this aspect, unfolding on the earth])
 
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ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
#22
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
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#22
TheDivineWatermark said:
"having predestined us unto 'son-placement' [divine-adoption-OF-SONS]"... (which is not the same kind of "adoption" WE think of, where a child outside of the family is brought into your family... but where the "full-grown-son [of one's own]" is bestowed the "full rights to act in his father's name" which is what Jesus had [note the words of the Father at His/Jesus' baptism]... and we have in a LEGAL/positional sense [ONLY by means of our "connection with Christ"] the moment we are "born [born-again/-from-above]" even as "new-born babes in Christ"--that is, in a LEGAL/positional sense... that is never severed... and which will be operative in a fuller sense once Romans 8:23 takes place [at "our Rapture" point in time])... So this is "eternal" and not a temporary, "iffy" thing. ;) PERMANENT.
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Whether you are a full grown son, or a child son, you are still predestined to eternal salvation.
 
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TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
#23
Aug 3, 2018
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#23
EDIT (to my last post): meant to clarify... "who is about to [CERTAIN to/SURE to (mello)] shepherd all the nations with a rod of iron..."
 
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TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
#24
Aug 3, 2018
10,923
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#24
ForestGreenCook said:
Whether you are a full grown son, or a child son, you are still predestined to eternal salvation.
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OT saints have "eternal salvation"... However, this is, in particular, "son-placement" (IN Christ)… which He had planned before to have at this time (meaning, to put into effect "in this present age [singular]" for all those who trust in Christ and His finished work alone for salvation; the plan is in effect--"son-placement" [legally/positionally]--which will be fully operative once "our Rapture" [which pertains SOLELY to "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" Eph1:20-23 WHEN (as to its existence)] takes place [yet future to this moment in time, as of the time of my posting :) ]).



JESUS was the "full-grown Son [of HIS OWN Father]" I was speaking of, who HAD THIS (and WE only have it, legally/positionally, by means of our connection WITH CHRIST / *IN* Christ [by means of faith IN HIM])
 
Nebuchadnezzer

Nebuchadnezzer

Well-known member
#25
Feb 8, 2019
1,134
205
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#25
John146 said:
According to your opinion, you or anyone else cannot know if they are “elect” or not.
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Chris1975 said:
That's correct. The bible says so. The true church are Elect but as to who these are will still be revealed: Romans 8v19 “19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God.”
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But then how can anyone have confidence?

Hebrews 10:35-36
So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded. You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.

Matthew 22:14
"For many are invited, but few are chosen."

Are these tryouts? Are all offered a chance to tryout for heaven?
But then comes the 1st round cuts, the 2nd round cuts... the final round tryouts and cuts?
For if they are tryouts then no one can have confidence unless their confidence is in their own abilities.

ALSO

If it is all God's choosing then how can we have confidence that God will choose us? Why me?

An answer is in Matthew 22:11-12
But when the king [God] came in to see the [invited] guests, he spotted a man who was not dressed in wedding clothes. ‘Friend,’ he asked, ‘how did you get in here without wedding clothes?’ But the man was speechless.

God invites all to come to him. But to choose God you ought to change. In this parable the 'Friend' was expected to change his clothes, but made no effort to do so. Now we must want to change, but even here God helps us to change.

CONCLUSION:
Does God choose us? Do we Choose God? (chicken or egg)
The answer to this is that Love does not boast nor keeps records of wrongs.

Is this how we debate with our wives? I [husband] chose you first, no I [wife] chose you first!!!
Well I [husband] asked you out on the first date, Well I [wife] dropped clues so that you would have courage to ask me out.... Is this LOVE? Is this then how we are to debate with our God?

We are to have assurance in our relationship with God. One way we can have confidence is by seeking to change our ways (like the example in the parable: change our clothes). Seeking to stay in his commandments. Whether he chose us first, or we chose him first matters not.

This question is not supposed to be answered, and I think it may never be answered.
So why keep debating it?
 
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ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
#26
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
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#26
Nehemiah6 said:
"Adoption as children" (which is not even the same as adoption as commonly understood, since believers are genuine children of God) is not the same as chosen to be justified by grace through faith (salvation and the gift of eternal life).

Those who are justified are born again, and those who are born again are "born of God", hence children of God. Which means that this verse is telling us that those who would believe on the Lord Jesus Christ would also become children of God, heirs, of God, and joint heirs with Christ. Thus biblical adoption means placing the individual in the position of legal heir, with all the privileges of an heir. And therefore God has reserved an eternal inheritance in Heaven for the saints.
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If God predetermined those he choose before the foundation of the world to be his children, then they will be his children. They cannot believe in the things of the Spirit, 1 Cor 2:14, until after they have been borne again with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, Eph 2:5, God regenerated them while they were yet dead, spiritually, in sins, and unable to discern, believe, in the things of the Spirit. Believing is not the cause of them being regenerated. God only regenerates those that he predetermined to be his children.
 
Melach

Melach

Well-known member
#27
Mar 28, 2019
2,057
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#27
election? elect trump for 2020 i say. the wall is biblical, look at the book of nehemiah. probably trump's favorite book.

viva deportitos!
 
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ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
#28
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
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#28
TheDivineWatermark said:
OT saints have "eternal salvation"... However, this is, in particular, "son-placement" (IN Christ)… which He had planned before to have at this time (meaning, to put into effect "in this present age [singular]" for all those who trust in Christ and His finished work alone for salvation; the plan is in effect--"son-placement" [legally/positionally]--which will be fully operative once "our Rapture" [which pertains SOLELY to "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" Eph1:20-23 WHEN (as to its existence)] takes place [yet future to this moment in time, as of the time of my posting :) ]).



JESUS was the "full-grown Son [of HIS OWN Father]" I was speaking of, who HAD THIS (and WE only have it, legally/positionally, by means of our connection WITH CHRIST / *IN* Christ [by means of faith IN HIM])
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Believing in spiritual things is not the cause of being born again, but is the evidence that we are already born again. Eph 2:5.
 
Chris1975

Chris1975

Senior Member
#29
Apr 27, 2017
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#29
ForestGreenCook said:
Believing in spiritual things is not the cause of being born again, but is the evidence that we are already born again. Eph 2:5.
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Ephesians 2
5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

This grace is ONLY accessed through Faith (which is believing). It needs to be seen in light of the below scripture a few verses later.

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

There is no getting around the BELIEVING aspect into the Grace in which we now stand. It is the Grace that saves (which is accessed through faith). We have been given the gift of the Holy Spirit.

John Bevere describes grace through faith as follows (paraphrased): A man is walking through the desert dying of thirst. Sees a town just ahead He crawls into town and looks around for a faucet tap but sees none. He notices a large water talk on stilts just ahead, suspended off the ground. He can see on the meter that it is full. He knows that the living water is there (the living water which will save him) but he has no way to access it. He looks around and eventually finds a hose to which he manages to attach to the water tank. Once connected the water begins to flow through this hose into his mouth. He has moved from a state of certain death to life.

The Hose pipe did not give him life. The Hose pipe was FAITH (our connection to God's grace). We are saved by Grace THROUGH Faith. It connected man to the tank. Man to God.

The Tank (Grace) contained the living water. It is the living water that gives life to his mortal body.

There is the connecting to God's grace through belief that saves us. Unbelief is like the hose remaining hidden or left on the ground. We need GRACE to make it through this world.

Hebrews 4
16 Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.
 
G

garee

Banned
#30
Mar 28, 2016
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#30
ForestGreenCook said:
Believing in spiritual things is not the cause of being born again, but is the evidence that we are already born again. Believing in spiritual things is not the cause of being born again, but is the evidence that we are already born again. Eph 2:5.
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.[/QUOTE]


Believing in spiritual things the work of God that works in us to both will and do his good pleasure is the cause of being born again, the evidence that we are already born again. Eph 2:5.

How could we beleive if he does not do the first work. Seeing dead people under the wrath of God have no faith by which they could believe the unseen things of God. It is the work of God's gospel not of ourselves that we can hear and understand him not seen. Then and not before we can seek after Him

As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.Romans3: 10-11

He has preeminence in all things. He is the Faithful and True Creator we are the labor of His love called a work of his faith. His masterpiece.
 
Chris1975

Chris1975

Senior Member
#31
Apr 27, 2017
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#31
Lets not over-complicate matters. The bible says it works like this:

Romans 10
14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:
“How beautiful are the feet of those who [b]preach the gospel of peace,
Who bring glad tidings of good things!”
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” 17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

1) God sends
2) a messenger (evangelist, angel of the Lord, Himself (e.g. Paul on the road to Damascus))
3) To Preach
4) They Hear the Word of God
5) They Believe the Word
6) They Call Upon the Name of the Lord

Now go back to verse 13

Romans 10
13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”


Belief (point 5) is required before Calling upon the Name of the Lord,

Or to put it in terms man will understand ---- how can you call upon the Lord if you don't believe in Him. Make sense?
 
G

garee

Banned
#32
Mar 28, 2016
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#32
Chris1975 said:
Lets not over-complicate matters. The bible says it works like this:

Romans 10
14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:
“How beautiful are the feet of those who [b]preach the gospel of peace,
Who bring glad tidings of good things!”
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” 17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

1) God sends
2) a messenger (evangelist, angel of the Lord, Himself (e.g. Paul on the road to Damascus))
3) To Preach
4) They Hear the Word of God
5) They Believe the Word
6) They Call Upon the Name of the Lord

Now go back to verse 13

Romans 10
13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”


Belief (point 5) is required before Calling upon the Name of the Lord,

Or to put it in terms man will understand ---- how can you call upon the Lord if you don't believe in Him. Make sense?
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Yes, you would need to believe something in order to call on. . . seeking for help by reason of ones suffering (the belly of the whale) .
Like in all things God takes preeminence. The first works His labor of Love. How can we hear unless he first works in us giving ears through the word of a Book as it is written .

Isaiah 29:18 And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

Its how beautiful are the feet shod with the gospel . not how beautiful are the hands or will of the creature. But God's hand moving us, washing our feet.

He is not served by human hands in any way shape of form of a creature. He can use a donkey to declare his will. He gives the spirit life to growth if any. We plant the seed and water with the doctrines.

John 13:8 Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me.
 
F

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
#34
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
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#34
Chris1975 said:
Ephesians 2
5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

This grace is ONLY accessed through Faith (which is believing). It needs to be seen in light of the below scripture a few verses later.

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,

There is no getting around the BELIEVING aspect into the Grace in which we now stand. It is the Grace that saves (which is accessed through faith). We have been given the gift of the Holy Spirit.

John Bevere describes grace through faith as follows (paraphrased): A man is walking through the desert dying of thirst. Sees a town just ahead He crawls into town and looks around for a faucet tap but sees none. He notices a large water talk on stilts just ahead, suspended off the ground. He can see on the meter that it is full. He knows that the living water is there (the living water which will save him) but he has no way to access it. He looks around and eventually finds a hose to which he manages to attach to the water tank. Once connected the water begins to flow through this hose into his mouth. He has moved from a state of certain death to life.

The Hose pipe did not give him life. The Hose pipe was FAITH (our connection to God's grace). We are saved by Grace THROUGH Faith. It connected man to the tank. Man to God.

The Tank (Grace) contained the living water. It is the living water that gives life to his mortal body.

There is the connecting to God's grace through belief that saves us. Unbelief is like the hose remaining hidden or left on the ground. We need GRACE to make it through this world.

Hebrews 4
16 Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.
Click to expand...
The "faith" in Eph 2:8 is not our faith. It is Jesus's faith (faithfulness) in going to the cross where he made the elect just, Gal 2:16. Before we are born again, the only faith that we have is the faith of man, 1 Cor 2,. We do not have spiritual faith until we have been given the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, in which, spiritual faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. Our spiritual faith can bring about a deliverance (salvation) here in this world, as referenced by Hebrews 4:16, but it is not the cause of our eternal deliverance.
 
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ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
#35
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
1,213
113
#35
Chris1975 said:
Lets not over-complicate matters. The bible says it works like this:

Romans 10
14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:
“How beautiful are the feet of those who [b]preach the gospel of peace,
Who bring glad tidings of good things!”
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” 17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

1) God sends
2) a messenger (evangelist, angel of the Lord, Himself (e.g. Paul on the road to Damascus))
3) To Preach
4) They Hear the Word of God
5) They Believe the Word
6) They Call Upon the Name of the Lord

Now go back to verse 13

Romans 10
13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”


Belief (point 5) is required before Calling upon the Name of the Lord,

Or to put it in terms man will understand ---- how can you call upon the Lord if you don't believe in Him. Make sense?
Click to expand...
Your problem is that you are saying that the natural man will hear, believe and call on a spiritual God, Not according to 1 Cor 2:14.
 
Chris1975

Chris1975

Senior Member
#36
Apr 27, 2017
2,492
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#36
ForestGreenCook said:
Your problem is that you are saying that the natural man will hear, believe and call on a spiritual God, Not according to 1 Cor 2:14.
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1 Corinthians 2
14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The natural man is EVERYBODY before believing in Christ. Once they believe, the are regenerated. The process is as described in Romans 10 above.

Secondly, the passage is not just talking about the salvation message of faith in Christ, but rather the breadth of spiritual knowledge that is unfolded and revealed to the regenerated man, when he seeks the Spirit of God.
 
breno785au

breno785au

Senior Member
#37
Jul 23, 2013
6,002
767
113
39
Australia
#37
Chris1975 said:
That's correct. The bible says so. The true church are Elect but as to who these are will still be revealed: Romans 8v19 “19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God.”
Click to expand...
That scripture is not talking about whether a person has certainty in God's salvation for them, I'm baffled how you could relate the two?

Your belief sounds similar to Muslims, everyone gets tossed to hell and hopefully God will pluck you out if your good works outweigh evil.

You just need to go two verses up to verse 16 that God's spirit confirms with our that we truly do belong to Him.
We must live in certainty that God has adopted us into His family otherwise you can live a life of confusion, fear and probably striving to do things to gain God's approval (when you already have it since you have faith in the work of His Son)
 
Chris1975

Chris1975

Senior Member
#38
Apr 27, 2017
2,492
517
113
#38
breno785au said:
That scripture is not talking about whether a person has certainty in God's salvation for them, I'm baffled how you could relate the two?

Your belief sounds similar to Muslims, everyone gets tossed to hell and hopefully God will pluck you out if your good works outweigh evil.

You just need to go two verses up to verse 16 that God's spirit confirms with our that we truly do belong to Him.
We must live in certainty that God has adopted us into His family otherwise you can live a life of confusion, fear and probably striving to do things to gain God's approval (when you already have it since you have faith in the work of His Son)
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You are mixing up belief and election. Not all who today believe will continue in their belief. Those who fall away were never elect. If you continue in your belief, you have nothing to worry about.
 
F

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
#39
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
1,213
113
#39
Chris1975 said:
1 Corinthians 2
14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The natural man is EVERYBODY before believing in Christ. Once they believe, the are regenerated. The process is as described in Romans 10 above.

Secondly, the passage is not just talking about the salvation message of faith in Christ, but rather the breadth of spiritual knowledge that is unfolded and revealed to the regenerated man, when he seeks the Spirit of God.
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You are ignoring the incapabilities of the natural man in saying that he first believes in the things of the Spirit and then he is regenerated. You have it right backwards. He is first regenerated and given the indwelling of the Holy Spirit before he can believe in the things of the Spirit,
 
G

garee

Banned
#40
Mar 28, 2016
15,954
1,528
113
#40
ForestGreenCook said:
You are ignoring the incapabilities of the natural man in saying that he first believes in the things of the Spirit and then he is regenerated. You have it right backwards. He is first regenerated and given the indwelling of the Holy Spirit before he can believe in the things of the Spirit,
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Yes no faith coming from God equals no faith to offer towards Him .Faith is a work of God or a labor of His love .He is the just one who performed the work in us to will and the justifier as one who does finishes what he does begin. Justifying us by that work of two .

One work of one faith. The Father and the Son working with us in us to both will and do His good pleasure. Just as he did in the Son of man, Jesus . His food was to do the will of Him not seen .The father who sent Jesus the apostle and High priest of our new born again faith.
 
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