Election 101

John 1
12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the [e]right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: 13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

>Belief is still required first (as per Romans 10), and we see it here again "But as many as received Him, He gave...….".
>"....the right to become children of God"
>"nor the will of the flesh" - means we did not determine the new birth (only God can give us new birth). We cannot will the new birth into existence.

We do not save ourselves. Only God saves us. But we have a response. There is a part we play in responding to the Gospel.

Hmm, so you're saying that a person can believe (trust in) Jesus and not be elect?

Romans 8:29 - For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. *Notice how Paul uses the past tense for a future event to stress it's certainty.

Amen.

We will not believe in the things of the Spirit, 1 Cor 2:14, until we have been born again and have received the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. When we believe, it delivers (saves) us from a lack of knowledge of the gospel. This is not an eternal deliverance(salvation) because we have already received that by Christ's death on the cross

I agree with you. The non elect will not believe in the things of the Spirit.

The pool of believers are made up of those who will overcome, and that who fall away. Those who overcome were always Elect. Those who fall away were never elect. They are termed Apostates in the Bible. Apostates are NEVER Elect.

your problem, which has been identified in various threads, is that you have the cart before the horse


8But what does it say? “The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,” that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: 9that if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For with your heart you believe and are justified, and with your mouth you confess and are saved.

11It is just as the Scripture says: “Anyone who believes in Him will never be put to shame.” 12For there is no difference between Jew and Greek: The same Lord is Lord of all, and gives richly to all who call on Him, 13for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

14How then can they call on the One in whom they have not believed? And how can they believe in the One of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone to preach? 15And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”

as v 14 above directs, you cannot believe in the One you have not heard about

no one needs to preach if somehow people are spontaneously saved rather than calling on Christ as the above scriptures indicate is the method God uses for salvation

I have no expectation you can accept that, but for those who wonder why you state the opposite, it seems you do not comprehend so perhaps that spirituality you like to discuss is not as you say, but occurs AFTER as the Holy Spirit opens up our understanding to the word

You are getting the order wrong. Read John 1v12 again. Or put another way, can you be saved without first believing in Christ? Think about it carefully.

1 Corinthians 2:14, KJV: "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." ... 1 Corinthians 2:14, NLT: "But people who aren't spiritual can't receive these truths from God's Spirit.

a saved person is no longer 'the natural man'

the Bible indicates a person hears about Jesus and THEN accepts Him (or not)

The election of 144,000 from the 12 tribes, all others hold to the cross.

Yes only God saves. Believers as new creatures are given ears to hear the gospel, they respond by believing God.

He must do the first works. . . . . our first love in experiencing his presence working in us . From there we fall, and from there knowing he cannot deny himself we are called to repent and do the first works. . . . "beleive God not seen".

I would suggest. But as many as received Him, to them alone he gave a new born again spirit life by which they could commune with the gospel

Without that hearing of faith, God giving ears to hear and a new heart to believe. . no man could turn toward the voice of God and believe and in turn comfort or repent our new hearts and rest in His love.. He turns us with His voice so that in turn we can turn to Him . If we begin with the hearing of faith we will finish with that work that works in those who do believe.

Jeremiah 31:17-19 King James Version (KJV) And there is hope in thine end, saith the Lord, that thy children shall come again to their own border. I have surely heard Ephraim bemoaning himself thus; Thou hast chastised me, and I was chastised, as a bullock unaccustomed to the yoke: turn thou me, and I shall be turned; for thou art the Lord my God. Surely after that I was turned, I repented; and after that I was instructed, I smote upon my thigh: I was ashamed, yea, even confounded, because I did bear the reproach of my youth.

The scriptures are written as a mystery. We must rightly divide the word of God so that the scriptures will harmonize. If you believe that there is only one kind of salvation (deliverance). One kind of Israel. One kind of world. One kind of life. One kind of Jerusalem. One kind of Zion. etc. The scriptures will not harmonize unless you rightly divide. After we have been born again and have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, There is deliverance when we believe and become knowledgeable of the truth. Greek meaning for salvation = a deliverance. There is an eternal deliverance and there is a timely deliverance. John 1:12 has reference to a timely deliverance when you include verse 13, stating that those that received him were already born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, NOR OF THE WILL OF MAN (as receiving him), but of God. They could not have received him until they were born again, 1 Cor 2:14.

The natural man is not a saved man until God gives him a fleshy heart to replace his heart of stone in regeneration and gives him the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, And then he is able to discern spiritual things to believe and accept. You are giving the natural man capabilities that he does not have.

Look, we don't need to endlessly debate what might be a very narrow and specific point (sliver) in time. I think we can agree on the basics which are:

1) An unbeliever is not born again
2) A believer is born again

If we agree on both (1) and (2) above, then the how one has moved from 1 to 2 may be of less importance, doctrinally speaking. The main difference is belief/faith. And that's ok. One day we might fully know this mystery. Fair point?

sigh

no one is regenerated before they are saved

they do not have the indwelling Holy Spirit and God does not bestow His Spirit on unsaved people

we are changed AFTER salvation

as you have been repeatedly told and presented with scripture. even many who call themselves Christian are not spiritual. they do not walk in the spirit and they deny half the reasons God has given us His Spirit

this would include all cessationists and those who speak against the gifts

Your expectation is correct. I cannot accept your interpretation of the scriptures as being the doctrine that Jesus taught, You are the one that has the cart before the horse. You are giving the natural man, 1 Cor 2:14, capabilities that he does not have in your misinterpretation of Romans 10. There is the nation of Israel, and there is the Jacob/Israel, who is representative of God's elect, Rom 9:11-13. Romans 9:6, For all Israel are not of Israel. Romans 10:1:3, The Israel in verse 1, has reference to Jacob/Israel, in the fact that they have a ZEAL of God (which the natural man does not have), The deliverance (salvation) that Paul is praying for, is that these, saved eternally, children bight be delivered (saved) from their lack of knowledge so that they will quit going about trying to establish their own righteousness by their good works as you are implying in your misinterpretation of Romans 10. While we are on the subject of the natural man; These Jews in Acts 2:37 were already born again children of God, else they could not have been "pricked" in their hearts. The fleshy heart of the born again man can be pricked, unlike the heart of stone in the natural men that stoned Steven to death, who were "cut to the heart". Jesus used this terminology with Paul, on the road to Damascus, saying, why do you kick against the "pricks".

no kidding

but you do have things mixed up. does not mean you are not saved, but others who are not saved, in reading your description of the order of salvation, might sit around wondering when God will bestow the Holy Spirit upon them which will be never until they move towards Him

the Holy Spirit first convicts and if the person accepts Christ, the rest follows

let's just 'rest ye merry gentlemen' on this one cause there are plenty of other mixed up folks around here and my work is not done (jking but somewhat true)

The scriptures, to me, is kind of like a puzzle. If you put a piece in the wrong place, you will never see the whole picture. "how one is moved from 1 to 2" sets the whole foundation between eternal salvation, and salvation by works. If you don't think that it is important, doctrinally, that is your choice, but , as for myself, I think it is very important, so as, to uphold the truth of the doctrine that Jesus taught, which is eternal salvation is by the sovereign grace of God, without the permission of man.

The natural man, before he has been born again and given the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, will not be "sitting around wondering when God will bestow the Holy Spirit upon them". If a person "moves toward Him" with the ability to discern the things of the Spirit, they already have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.