What is your BEST PROOF for a pre-trib Rapture?

God never did live in temples made with human hands. The abomination of desolation. A created thing seen in the eternal place of our invisible God not seen who is not a man as us..

Those temples were shadows to represent residents of the city. The bride which God named, Christian. Previously called born again Israel .A befitting name. Christian, a word with no other meaning. . . Meaning residents of the city of Christ, named after her founder and husband, Christ. .

The Ezekiel account would appear to be vision to Son of man Jesus, as to the golden measure of faith. Where numbers as golden represent residents and not architectural buildings as the measure of man . 144,000 the elect .A number no man could count .Those redeemed from earth..

Revelation 21:15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.

JEREMIAH 3 [20] SURELY AS A WIFE TREACHEROUSLY DEPARTETH FROM HER HUSBAND, SO HAVE YE DEALT TREACHEROUSLY WITH ME, O HOUSE OF ISRAEL, SAITH THE LORD. [21] A voice was heard upon the high places, weeping and supplications of the children of Israel: for they have perverted their way, and they have forgotten the LORD their God. [22] Return, ye backsliding children, and I will heal your backslidings. Behold, we come unto thee; for thou art the LORD our God.

Israel is the bride

JEREMIAH 2 [31] O generation, see ye the word of the Lord. Have I been A WILDERNESS UNTO ISRAEL? a land of darkness? wherefore say my people, We are lords; we will come no more unto thee? [32] Can a maid forget her ornaments, OR A BRIDE HER ATTIRE? yet my people have forgotten me days without number.

Israel the bride

JEREMIAH 3 [11] And the LORD said unto me, THE BACKSLIDING ISRAEL hath justified herself more than treacherous Judah.[12] Go and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, Return, thou backsliding Israel, saith the LORD; and I will not cause mine anger to fall upon you: for I am merciful, saith the LORD, and I will not keep anger for ever.[13] Only acknowledge thine iniquity, that thou hast transgressed against the LORD thy God, and hast scattered thy ways to the strangers under every green tree, and ye have not obeyed my voice, saith the LORD.[14] TURN, O BACKSLIDING CHILDREN, SAITH THE LORD; FOR I AM MARRIED UNTO YOU: AND I WILL TAKE YOU ONE OF A CITY, AND TWO OF A FAMILY, AND I WILL BRING YOU TO ZION:

Backsliding Israel. I am married unto you. Israel is the bride. I will take you one of a city, and two of a family. Sound familiar?

LUKE 17 [33] Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. [34] I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the ONE SHALL BE TAKEN, AND THE OTHER SHALL BE LEFT. [35] Two women shall be grinding together; THE ONE SHALL BE TAKEN, AND THE OTHER LEFT. [36] Two men shall be in the field; the ONE SHALL BE TAKEN, AND THE OTHER LEFT.

Sure does. And they are not going to heaven {as the rapturist claim} but are taken to Zion {Jer.3v14} for the 1000yr period of rest.

REVELATION 21 {9} And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I WILL SHEW THEE THE BRIDE, THE LAMB'S WIFE. {10} And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, {11} Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; {12} And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of THE TWELVE TRIBES OF THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL:

Theres the bride according to this new covenant scripture. Its the 12 tribes of Israel, just as the old testament says.

^ So that's the "GATES" (you are pointing out) as here:

Then [FURTHER] look at the "WALL" / "12 FOUNDATIONS" as in the following (not sure why you never go on to quote THAT VERSE along with your pointing this out):

The "12 gates" is not identical to "the wall/12 foundations" is it? Do you think?






[again, Eph1:10 is not speaking of the "NOW" like the rest of the epistle is speaking to ]

YES, WE ARE LIVING IN THE KINGDOM NOW!!! That is exactly what I've been trying to tell you.

No I am NOT trying to get others out of the Word. I'm trying to get others to properly understand the Word. Your view has a third temple getting built with God condoning animal sacrifices again. It's warped.

I've addressed everything that you've asked about. What hasn't happened yet? You cited Dan 8 as a future event. Google a study on it. It was about Alexander and the Greek conquest over the Medes and Persians ending with Antiochus, a Greek. You are hopelessly ignorant about history and I'm trying to help you.

Sure we are to learn from past events but since you don't know history, how are you supposed to learn from it?

Now I see you quoting 2 Peter 3. At least you moved out of BC to AD. Congrats. You are making progress. 2 Pet 3 was about the Jewish War and the destruction of the temple, Jerusalem and the nation of Israel. You made it to 70 AD. Good job.

Of course we are still in the flesh. We haven't died yet. Where are you getting this crazy idea that Jesus was going to turn all living people from flesh bodies to spiritual bodies upon His return, regardless of when He returned(s)? You cherry pick verses without picking up the whole context. Go back in 1 Cor 15 and see what Paul says earlier:

35 But someone will say, “How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come?” 36 Foolish one, what you sow is not made alive unless it dies.

Did you see that??? You can not be made alive (a spiritual being) unless you die first. This is how we've been getting to heaven for the past 2,000 years. We must die first. Darby was the first to teach this nonsense. Guess what, he died too.

Amen brother. God has just revealed this to me personally (although it was there the whole time as clear as day) and what a complete decimation of the pre-trib rapture this is. I mean I have known all the parts to this and have heard it so many times about the 3rd temple. Not that men couldn't make a building and call it Gods temple, but exactly what you just said, God's temple has served it's purpose and it's time has passed. There is no temple to desecrate and God bringing this system back is completely out of His character, is not written anywhere in His word, and to be a bit bold here, but if what you say is true this make Jesus wrong and throws everything else out of wack in my opinion.

Should I be hunkered down just waiting for Jesus to bring a worldly kingdom?
Or should I be in the street declaring Jesus King of all kings and Lord of lords right now, testifying about the power of this King that calls all to turn from our own ways and turn to Him who changes hearts? What we believe about this helps to shape a lot of how we approach evangelism. Good points brother.

Right. The wedding FEAST/SUPPER.

Even in Rev19, "the MARRIAGE" itself [v.7] IS DISTINCT FROM "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" of the Lamb [v.9].

The "Bride/Wife [singular]" is NOT the "INVITED guests [plural]".

In the gospels, in "the wedding feast/supper[/festivities]" parables, no "bride/wife" is being spoke of there.

He is not coming to MARRY "10 Virgins" [nor even FIVE]! These are who will "go in with [G3326 -accompanying] Him to the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" (the earthly MK age!) [note: NOT the "with [G4862 - UNION-with/IDENTIFICATION-with]" used of "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (the 'ONE BODY')]




So, "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" is also what we see in the picture of when Jesus attended "the wedding feast in Cana" [Jn2] (along with the many other GUESTS of that particular celebration). This was distinct from "the union of that couple" (already-wed).

SO YOU BELIEVE WE ARE LIVING IN A WORLD RULED BY THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD???? NOT BY GODS STANDARDS. NOT BY A LONG SHOT.

JESUS came to bring in that kingdom. It was rejected. He was crucified. It was put in abeyance.

I thought we were the Body of Christ.

Try reading it with SPIRITUAL EYES

I will destroy the temple this, the one made with hands, and in three days another, not made with hands, I will build.

There is the "temple" you all are searching for.

Gates and walls, or Tribes and Apostles represent the one and the same bride of Christ as residents of the city .

leaving out Dan from tribes and the apostle Judas from a remnant of the Apostles (27) are used together to represent the spirit of judgment on those who refuse to believe the gospel . In both cases 12 represents the whole as the authority of God as to whatsoever in in view. 13 to many. 11 not enough.

The 12 tribes of Israel along "with" the 12 apostles. One bride, one gospel . Tribes represent old testemtment born again ones, while apostles represent believers on this side of the reformation . Two witnesses that establish the peace of God that surpasses our human understanding.

The MILLENNIAL TEMPLE. The Lords Day. When Christ returns as Lord of Lords and King of kings. The day of vengeance. His feet hitting the mount. The valley created. The host of heaven cast to the earth. A Thousand years. We all are changed. No more flesh. Lamb lies down with lion, no more carnivores. River that can't be crossed. Priests teaching truth and obedience without any false doctrine to get in the way. Then near the end, Satan loosed. The Last testing. Gods destruction of all evil, the second death at the lake of fire. Eternal kingdom.


Isaiah 34:1 Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it.

Isaiah 34:2 For the indignation of the LORD is upon all nations, and his fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter.

YET HERE THEY ARE

Isaiah 34:3 Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood.

Isaiah 34:4 And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.

YET, HERE THEY AREN'T

Isaiah 34:5 For my sword shall be bathed in heaven: behold, it shall come down upon Idumea, and upon the people of my curse, to judgment.

Isaiah 34:6 The sword of the LORD is filled with blood, it is made fat with fatness, and with the blood of lambs and goats, with the fat of the kidneys of rams: for the LORD hath a sacrifice in Bozrah, and a great slaughter in the land of Idumea.

YET, THIS HAS NOT HAPPENED

Isaiah 34:7 And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness.

Isaiah 34:8 For it is the day of the LORD's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.

Isaiah 34:9 And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch.

Isaiah 34:10 It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.

WHERE IS THIS, obviously forever INCLUDES RIGHT NOW

Isaiah 34:11 But the cormorant and the bittern shall possess it; the owl also and the raven shall dwell in it: and he shall stretch out upon it the line of confusion, and the stones of emptiness.

Isaiah 34:12 They shall call the nobles thereof to the kingdom, but none shall be there, and all her princes shall be nothing.

Isaiah 34:13 And thorns shall come up in her palaces, nettles and brambles in the fortresses thereof: and it shall be an habitation of dragons, and a court for owls.

Isaiah 34:14 The wild beasts of the desert shall also meet with the wild beasts of the island, and the satyr shall cry to his fellow; the screech owl also shall rest there, and find for herself a place of rest.

Isaiah 34:15 There shall the great owl make her nest, and lay, and hatch, and gather under her shadow: there shall the vultures also be gathered, every one with her mate.

Isaiah 34:16 SEEK YE OUT OF THE BOOK OF THE BOOK OF THE LORD AND READ, NO ONE OF THESE SHALL FAIL, NONE SHALL WANT HER MATE FOR MY MOUTH IT HATH COMMANDED AND HIS SPIRIT IT HATH GATHERED THEM.

Isaiah 34:17 And he hath cast the lot for them, and his hand hath divided it unto them by line: they shall possess it for ever, from generation to generation shall they dwell therein.

And did all this take place, I guess it would be about 900??? or so years ago? calculating from your professing of the Lords returning. And this is the Kingdom you believe we are now living in?

5Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Revelation 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Revelation 21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; AND THERE SHALL BE NO MORE DEATH, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Revelation 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Revelation 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

Revelation 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Revelation 21:9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

Revelation 21:10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

Revelation 21:11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;

Revelation 21:12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel

Revelation 21:13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.

Revelation 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

___________________

Revelation 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Revelation 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Revelation 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Revelation 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Revelation 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book

Revelation 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Revelation 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

Revelation 22:21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

Does the PROPHET EXCALIBUR NOT like reading with "Spiritual Eyes"???? Strange thing to disagree with, me thinks

One cannot spiritualize prophecy and make it mean anything! This is what false prophets do!

There are spiritual things and natural things, no doubt! But once a person starts spiritualizing prophecy it is no longer based on any truth given by the Holy Spirit!

Melach, have you given this any further thought ^ ?

Do you really think it is a "miracle" (as you put it) that there are indeed "time-related prophecies" in Scripture (concerning Israel)?

Did you look into this at all? Or have you forgotten and think little of it?

Just wondering.

[ ^ referring to my Post #891 (page 45 of this thread) - https://christianchat.com/threads/what-is-your-best-proof-for-a-pre-trib-rapture.188798/post-4115936 ]

I truly don't understand what the disconnect is here. Yes there is no longer an earthly physical temple. Yay we agree and understand each other. Why is it so hard to understand that in the light of this truth that the AoD has to have happened while Gods temple WAS ON EARTH, otherwise it's too late and Jesus was wrong. Why can you not see this? If you truly believe what you literally just wrote then you cannot believe in a coming AoD, the time when that even could have happen is over. Without breaking out charts, timelines, guru's, imagination, and worst of all approaching the text with a preconceived idea and molding everything to fit it, having to pull out single verses form their context to support it. When Jesus died "once for all" for our sin, then brought judgement on the covenant breakers, that generation just like Jesus said in plain word with no need for the charts and such, the age of the temple was over. Proof? NO TEMPLE or sacrificial system at all ever again to this day. It's so mind boggling to me how you see all this, proclaim all this, yet can not see the simple logic of the point I'm making here. Without Gods temple on earth the AoD can not happen and God's temple is gone forever, that age has been fulfilled and has passed away. It's over and all the points you're making to me about the temple here, support my view not yours at all. Not at all yet you keep coming at me with facts that support my view like you're proving yourself right???? I don't get it, you seem to see things pretty clearly, yet you refuse to budge on your view that makes no sense at all. None.