Apostasy 101

Do you even understand the meaning of the eternal security of the believer?[/QUOTE]
Yes.
The life that you get through faith in Christ never ends.
Unlike the 'life' you got through the Levitical sacrifices which only lasted for a while.
That's why you should keep believing in the life that Christ gives.

Yes, those who are presently believing in Christ (not those who used to believe) have the never ending life that Christ gives. Unlike the life that ended that the Levitical priesthood and sacrifice provided because those high priests died, and those sacrifices were not only inferior but eventually got consumed on the altar and had to be replaced with another one.

This side of heaven, eternal life doesn't mean you can't lose it. It means it won't peter out like it did in the old covenant because in this New Covenant the High Priest never dies and his sacrifice is forever interceding on behalf of the believing person on the altar in heaven. Jesus' ministry and sacrifice is infinitely superior to the ministry and sacrifice of the Levites. That's why we should not lose confidence in so great a ministry. Hebrews explains all of this. Don't throw your confidence in such a great hope away!

Deuteronomy 31:16-17
16 And the Lord said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them.

17 Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us?

This is the reason for the New Covenant because the Old Covenant was broken.

This is what the New Covenant says;

Romans 8:1-2
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.


Do you believe His Words? Because believing in Him means believing His Words.

They broke his covenant under the old. And it too is possible to break it under the new. Look at your quote above: Highlighted in Red. There is the proviso.

So the point being, that the NEVER leave or forsake, comes with conditions.

Only on the surface do these scriptures appear to contradict OSAS. The picture here illustrates God's total forgiveness when dealing with our sins at the cross. Our debt has been paid in full by Jesus. The contrast in verse 28, where the servant is unwilling to forgive his fellow servant a debt of a hundred denarii is presented as a repulsive, hypothetical situation. As unimaginable as this would be, that is how unbelievable it would be for a genuine Christian, who has been forgiven such a huge debt, to be unforgiving of others with such a small debt. In the story, such an unforgiving servant is called "wicked" because no genuine born again Christian would have such an unforgiving heart.

A Christian’s forgiveness of others is based on an understanding that he has been forgiven by God’s undeserved and unearned mercy. Jesus warned that God cannot forgive us if we do not have humble and repentant hearts and we reveal the condition of our hearts by the way we treat others. Hearts that are humble and gratefully accept God’s grace gladly forgive others from a heart that is saved, but proud and revengeful hearts with no true repentance that don't forgive in such small matters, reveal a heart that is unsaved and don't receive God's forgiveness.

Those who are unforgiving from the heart show that they are not fit to receive God’s forgiveness. Failure to forgive in such a small matter shows that this person has not understood God’s grace and forgiveness, hence the term, "wicked servant," which is not descriptive of a genuine believer. The fact that this person is called a servant does not necessarily mean they were saved either. God referred to the children of Israel as His servants, yet they were not all saved.

Leviticus 25:55 - For the children of Israel are servants to Me; they are My servants whom I brought out of the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God.

Isaiah 43:10 - You are my witnesses, says the LORD, my servant, whom I chose..

This is the effect of the new covenant:

Hebrews 9
11 But Christ came as High Priest of the good things [c]to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. 12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. 13 For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, [d]sanctifies for the [e]purifying of the flesh, 14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without [f]spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? 15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Who said they completely stopped believing and it was a done deal and they lost their salvation? The present tense of the word "justified" implies that these Galatians were contemplating justification by the law. They were getting side tracked by legalistic teachers. "You who are trying to be justified by the law have fallen away from grace," but had they fully come to that place yet?

Galatians 3:3 reads: Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? The middle voice implies "making yourselves perfect" by means of self effort. The present tense indicates that the action is in progress and that there is still time to correct the error.

If these Galatians lost their salvation and it was a done deal, then why didn't Paul simply say you "lost your salvation" and I'm done with you? Instead, in verse 10, he said - I have confidence in you, in the Lord, that you will have no other mind; but he who troubles you shall bear his judgment, whoever he is. *Why would Paul have confidence in these Galatians if they lost their salvation and it's all over for them?

The only way to break the New Covenant is to not believe His Word.

He will never leave you nor forsake you if you believe Him.

Unless you fall in Apostasia. Look up the word in Greek. Look it up in the Strongs concordance. Not possible for an unbeliever to fall in Apostasia, because they were never believers. This word exists for a reason.

And by your own words......how could they break a covenant they are NOT ALREADY IN? See the problem.

You and your Sabbath again.

Nobody that I know of has said that.
They went back to the law for justification.
Paul said you make Christ of no effect when you do that.
We know God hadn't given up on them, yet, by the fact Paul is still reaching out to them.
If they continue to reject God's call to come back they will be turned over to their unbelief and lost.
We'll find out one day what they decided to do.

Had they?
Read what you just quoted: "You who are trying to be justified by the law."

This point is not in contention, or at least should not be. This is all about justification.
You can become forever perfect through justification in Christ (For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy. - Hebrews 10:14), or you can try to become perfect through the law. They left the former to attempt the latter. Paul said they were foolish for doing that. They really did that.

I've been saying this all along.
Paul still reaching out to them shows us that God is giving them a chance to come back.
The same patience that brought them to Christ is giving them room to reconsider.
But after that, forget it. It's over.

They hadn't been turned over to their unbelief, yet.

Well, hopefully now you see I'm saying God did not turn them over to their unbelief so as to be lost, yet.
The confidence that Paul is expressing towards the Galatians is the same confidence a little league coach has for his aspiring young team. Did your coach ever tell you you guys were bunch of losers? No, of course not.
When the coach tells you you'll win, it means you have that potential in you. DO IT!

We see this same kind of hopeful encouragement to continue in faith in Christ when he's talking to the Hebrews, too (Hebrews 10:39). They, also, had fallen from confidence in Christ. He's not expressing some kind of 'osas' confidence that they can not be lost. He's telling them to realize the potential they have in themselves. They were champions last year, so be the champions you are, now.


And, just so you are aware, this shows us Paul did not mean his confidence in them meant he knew with absolute 'osas' certainty that they would come back to justification in Christ:

11I fear for you, that somehow I have wasted my efforts on you. - Galatians 4:11

A true, dyed in the wool, osas'er would not say that, ever.

(Which reminds me. I get a kick out of Calvinists who lament over false teachers causing people to be lost. LOL. I know you understand what I'm saying. Others might not.)

Obedience is the result of a careful analysis of an issued command, whether to abide by it of go against it. If the Lord puts obedience in your heart and then commands you, where does disobedience come come from?

OSAS?! i don't think so.

Faith has an element of hope and therefore it is always forward looking and never backward looking. No one hopes for what they already have but if you don't have it, you wait for it patiently in perseverance- this is what it means to hope.

We'll find out one day if God's saints are really preserved forever or not. (Psalm 37:28) or really sealed until the redemption of the purchased possession or not. (Ephesians 1:13-14)

Sidetracked, still time to correct the error. Not a done deal.

They were getting sidetracked by legalistic teachers, but Paul did not say they lost their salvation and it was all over for them. Paul had confidence in them and not simply little league coach confidence and God is not a disengaged referee either. How could anyone be sanctified once for all (Hebrews 10:10) or perfected forever (Hebrews 10:14) if being sanctified is merely temporary and believers lose their salvation?

But was justification by the law/unbelief their final answer? Apparently not.

There may be hope for you yet.

Keep going!

The Hebrews who drew back to perdition in Hebrews 10:39 DID NOT BELIEVE TO THE SAVING OF THE SOUL.

Then Paul's words in Romans 8:30; Ephesians 1:13-14 and Philippians 1:6 were superfluous.

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I fear for you, that somehow I have wasted my efforts on you. - Galatians 4:11

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In bondage to weak and beggarly elements/observing days and months and seasons and years. Nothing mentioned about losing salvation.

I see that Noose is still on the Loose. This hope is not some wishy washy cross your fingers hope I make it kind of hope. Unlike the english word "hope," the N.T. word contains no uncertainty; it speaks of something that is certain. - Strong's #1680 elpís (from elpō, "to anticipate, welcome") – properly, expectation of what is sure (certain); hope. If we have saving faith in Christ, then we have this hope. Faith is the substance of things HOPED for.. (Hebrews 11:1). So that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the HOPE of eternal life (Titus 3:7). There are 3 tenses to salvation which seem to trip you up. 1. Justification 2. Ongoing Sanctification 3. Glorification

Which tense of salvation are believers waiting patiently for that they don't yet have?

No such thing as tenses of salvation, a persons status is either saved or condemned. The reason some words are used in the past tense is because God's promises are certain:

2 Cor 1:20For all the promises of God are “Yes” in Christ. And so through Him, our “Amen” is spoken to the glory of God.

This doesn't mean you have already achieved them:

Heb 10: 36You need to persevere, so that after you have done the will of God, you will receive what He has promised.

Right now, we are working towards the promises of God which we can only obtain after we have done His will.

Hope, whether the English one or wishy washy cross your finger kind or the NT kind, can never be applied on past things, they are all forward looking and no single human being on the entire planet can hope for what they already have. If you have it you can not hope for it.

Justified/saved/glorified have all been used in past tense, so you can not choose first and second and leave out the other.

Wisdom of man, traditions/precepts of man, is such hard ground to "plough!"

But? This is what MUST be done, when that which is sown in good ground GROWS, and needs to be placed in "the larger pot!"
Unlike a "greenhouse", the "believer" must "till their own ground!" Meaning? ALL the "ground" in Jesus' parable? Is GOOD!
But THAT'S between the believer and God!
People can testify, and bare witness to which transpires WHEN this is done!
Just as we can read from so many people that which transpires when this ISN'T done!

THE PROBLEM isn't with SCRIPTURE.

The problem is with "THE DOCTRINE" THAT MAN HAS PUT TOGETHER.

It is the nature of the doctrine that leads to deception of those who are first hearing, of those WHO ARE STILL ON THE BOTTLE, a doctrine to be EASILY used by the wicked to seduce those who upon finding out "all you have to do is believe" NEVER TO EXPLAIN to the lambs who KNOWING NO BETTER, NOW believing they are saved, never feeling a need to move past that on to the Truth received THROUGH THE PROCESS, go on about their way, confident IN A LIE.

EVERYONE agrees that for those who have come to Christ (arrived) (which happens through A PROCESS), are saved.
Romans 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

But THE DOCTRINE is deceiving in the way that THE PROCESS of coming to and ARRIVING is cast out, NOT FOR those who have arrived but for those WHO ARE BABES. It sets in motion "a belief" the is TRUE TO THE LETTER of the Word, BUT NOT TRUE TO THE SPIRIT of the WORD.

That is why the argument OVER THE DOCTRINE is taking up the time OF GODS CHILDREN (Satan loving it) who should be MOVING PAST unto the MEAT AND WORST OF ALL NEVER BECOMING ONE BODY. THAT IS HOW YOU KNOW IT SIN'T OF GOD.

Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
Hebrews 5:10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.
Hebrews 5:11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.
Hebrews 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
Hebrews 5:13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
Hebrews 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
Hebrews 6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Hebrews 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
Hebrews 6:3 And this will we do, if God permit.
Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
Hebrews 6:5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Hebrews 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Hebrews 6:7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
Hebrews 6:8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
Hebrews 6:9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

But for how long?
That is what the exbeliever does not know.
That is, if God hasn't already turned the exbeliever over to their unbelief.
The Galatians were immature. I think God takes that into consideration when determining how long he will endure the backslider's unbelief.

Friend, please read my posts carefully.
I never said God had turned them over to their unbelief, yet.

I thought you knew the definition of 'sanctified'.
It means 'made clean' and 'set apart for a holy purpose'.
The moment you were saved you were made clean and set apart for a holy purpose.
That 'set apart-ness' is also an ongoing process. In actual practice, you become more and more set apart. But in salvation itself it's instant.

Justification means appearing perfect in God's sight.
You are made perfect the instant you are saved.
If you read the passages in Hebrews it doesn't say 'forever' means you can't lose justification. It says 'forever' means you don't have to repeat the sacrifice again and again like you did in the OT to be justified. With Christ and His ministry one time is all it takes. And which is why you should continue to cling to such a hope and not cast in away in unbelief. The mistake you are making is thinking 'forever' means you can't lose it. That is not what the letter says. It says what I'm saying.

I'll be honest with you. I'm disappointed that you have not been reading my posts. Which is fine if you don't want to, but you led me to believe you were. But now I see you were not.

Of course they don't believe.
That's what happens to people who don't believe.
The promises are conditioned on present believing.

I sense you impressing your osas bias on the passage, because it seems you're saying 'did not believe to the saving of the soul' in your statement above means they never believed. You're in a box. I suspect your thinking is literally tainted with osas so you can't see scripture any other way. You literally can not see that there is a different and legitimate way to read these various scriptures we've been talking about.

No, it means those verses do not mean what osas says they mean. They don't have to mean what you have been taught they mean. They have to be interpreted in light of other plain scriptures that won't allow those wrong interpretations.

Actually, Paul made it quite clear. Going back to the law for justification makes justification in Christ of no effect. That's a salvation issue.

A person is either saved or condemned (John 3:18) yet there are 3 tenses to salvation. 1. We have been saved from the PENALTY of sin (justification) 2. We are being saved from the POWER of sin (ongoing sanctification) 3. We will be saved from the PRESENCE of sin (glorification) Chris1975 understands this. Works-salvationists generally mix up these 3 tenses and turn justification into an ongoing process.

John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day. Believers have already achieved "having been" (past tense, with ongoing present results) saved through faith. (Ephesians 2:8) According to your logic, believers are not truly saved yet, but are candidates for salvation who are on probation throughout their lifetime in (cross your fingers) hope of finally receiving salvation in the end.

Perseverance in faith is proof of genuine conversion. In Hebrews 3:14, we read - For we have become [past tense Greek verb, gegonamen, meaning we have become already] partakers of Christ, (demonstrative evidence) if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end. Notice that this is essentially a repeat of verse 6, where we have read: but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house - whose house we are, (demonstrative evidence) if we hold fast our confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end. The wording is not - "and you will become partakers of Christ (future indicative) if you (future indicative) hold fast." It is rather - "you have been, and now are partakers of Christ (demonstrative evidence) if in the future you hold fast to Christ."

The point is that not all of these Hebrews have become partakers in their promised Messiah. And of course, the only ones in the end who will be identified as truly born again Hebrews who have partaken in Messiah, will have been those who have held fast the beginning of their confidence steadfast to the end. Those faltering Hebrews who depart from God may have begun with loud confidence and profession of loyalty, but what about later?

So which Hebrews did the will of God? Those who have believed and not those who did not mix faith with what they heard. (Hebrews 4:2-3) Those who believed to the saving of the soul and not those who drew back to perdition. (Hebrews 10:39)

Believers can still hope with certainty, as I pointed out in post #235. 1 Peter 1:9 - .."receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls." Which tense of salvation is that? Hint: We are saved NOW, but this comes at the end. If your hope is not certain, then your hope is in the wrong object.

Are believers justified/saved NOW? Yes. Have believers received their glorified bodies yet? No. Think about it.