Apostasy 101

I would say biased observation. Holy living involves works, yet we are not saved based on the merits of works which are produced from holy living. Believers should absolutely strive to live holy lives, which is part of our ongoing sanctification, but we must never fall into the trap of believing that we are "holier than thou" so based on that, the Lord will surely save me based on my performance, yet other believers fall short of my personal holy standard, so surely they won't be saved. This is where works salvation becomes a snare.

MMD, we are not saved based on the merit of works - agreed.
^^^^settled.

Now, if someone says they have faith but has NO WORKS AT ALL, are they saved? Y/N please.

James 2v14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?

We are not saved by works or by an empty profession of faith/dead faith that produces no works. The key word in James 2:14 is SAYS they have faith but... Where is the evidence? Faith is the root of salvation and works are the fruit. No fruit at all demonstrates there is no root.

We agree on this.

And then your thoughts on this verse:
Matthew 7
19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

Matthew 7:17 - Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

Good.

So a call to holiness, is that works?

Good works are produced out of holiness/holy living, but like I said in post #260....

Just my own interpretation, huh? Far from what the Bible teaches? So you reject justification, sanctification and glorification? There is only justification? If it's merely my own personal interpretation, then why are there so many articles written on the 3 tenses of salvation? Feel free to google "3 tenses to salvation" and watch how many articles come up.

You turn salvation into probation and receiving eternal life into type 2 works salvation. The one who stands victorious in the end is the same one who truly has been saved through faith. Romans 8:30 - Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. *ALL of them.

I am not full of contradictions. You are just full of confusion. Those who have been saved from the penalty of sin are still being saved from the power of sin because believers are going through the process of ongoing sanctification (work out your salvation) throughout their lifetime. It's not work for your salvation as works-salvationists teach. 1 Corinthians 6:11 - Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. That is positional sanctification, yet there is also progressive sanctification in which the reality of that holiness becomes more and more evident in our actions, words, thoughts, attitudes, and motives.

1 Thessalonians 4:3-4, - For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain (present tense) from sexual immorality; that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor. So becoming washed, sanctified and justified in Christ is a one time event, yet abstaining from sexual immorality and becoming more holy in our behavior is not a one time event. Here is how I see it. The believer possess a positional, judicial standing of righteousness in Christ and, second, a remaining need for practical, progressive holiness in our behavior. We will reach ultimate or final sanctification when we receive our glorified bodies.

You just don't get it because you read the scriptures through the lens of works salvation.

You confuse descriptive passages of scripture with prescriptive passages of scripture, which a common error made by works-salvationists.

In Revelation 14:12, the Amplified Bible reads - Here is [encouragement for] the steadfast endurance of the saints (God’s people), those who habitually keep God’s commandments and their faith in Jesus. The NASB reads - Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep (Greek word "tereo" - guard, observe, watch over) the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus. (descriptive of genuine believers) 13 And I heard a voice from heaven, saying, “Write, ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on!’” “Yes,” says the Spirit, “so that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow with them.”

You really stress "remain" to imply it's such a difficult burden to do so, which is typical from the mindset of type 2 works salvation. Also, their deeds follow them as the fruit of salvation, but not as the means of salvation. I usually hear SDA's quote Revelation 14:12 and stress commandment keeping as the means of obtaining salvation.

BTW did you ever come to understand that from the context of Romans 5:18 all men in Adam are condemned, and all men in Christ are justified? I will NEVER forget our conversation on Romans 5:18 in which you misinterpreted that verse to mean that one righteous act by Christ resulted in justification and life (automatically) for all people (including unbelievers). I almost fell out of my chair when I first heard you say that!



https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...tion-can-be-lost.185786/page-162#post-4021360

Well that's a start. Keep going.

Only the 4th soil did persevere and produced fruit. What does that tell you about the other 3 soils which did neither?

The mistake you are making is assuming that ALL belief is the same. *Unlike saving belief, shallow, temporary belief is not rooted in a regenerate heart. How can no depth of earth, no root, no moisture, no fruit, represent saving belief? Also the same Greek word for believe "pisteuo" is used in James 2:19, in which we read that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," but they are not saved. So clearly, NOT all belief is the same.

John has portrayed people who "believe" (at least to some extent) but are clearly not saved. There is a stage in the progress of belief in Jesus that "falls short of firmly rooted, consummated belief resulting in salvation." As we see in John 2:23-25, in which their belief was superficial in nature and Jesus would not entrust/commit Himself to them.

Also, in John 8:31-59, where the Jews who were said to have "believed in him" turn out to be slaves to sin, indifferent to the words of Jesus’, children of the devil, liars, accused Jesus of having a demon and were guilty of setting out to stone and kill the one they have professed to believe in. We can see at best, these Jews believed in Him (based on their own misconceptions and expectations) of Jesus, yet upon gaining further knowledge about Jesus through His words, we see they did not truly "believe unto salvation" and become children of God (John 1:12; 3:18) but were instead children of the devil.

BTW: I remember having this conversion with Ralph (who many people suspect is YOU, yet when asked if you are Ralph, you simply dodge the question, which speaks volumes).

I clearly proved my point from scripture that NOT all belief is the same, yet those in the nosas camp cannot seem to grasp this or refuse to grasp this in order to preserve their biased, predetermined nosas understanding of the parable. Roman Catholics and Mormons would strongly agree with your biased interpretation. No red flag, huh?

More bias from the nosas camp. The Galatians were getting side tracked by legalistic teachers, which does not mean they permanently stopped believing. Paul did not say they lost their salvation and it was all over for them, which seems to be the biased opinion from the nosas camp. Your obsession with attacking the osas doctrine is reaching the point of nausea and your arguments remind me of the same arguments I heard several years ago while still attending the Roman Catholic church.

Let me rephrase...

Paul exhorting Christians to abstain from X, Y and Z (fill in the blanks)…….is that Works?

If we are abstaining from X, Y and Z (various sinful behaviors) are we instead producing good works?
Honoring Paul's exhortation/obeying a command etc.. by refusing to give in to these sinful behaviors is works.

Good works are produced out of holiness/holy living, but like I said in post #260....

Good.

Are we free to ignore these exhortations of Paul without any repercussions to our eternal security?

Good.

Are we free to ignore these exhortations of Paul without any repercussions to our eternal security?

Just my own interpretation, huh? Far from what the Bible teaches? So you reject justification, sanctification and glorification? There is only justification? If it's merely my own personal interpretation, then why are there so many articles written on the 3 tenses of salvation? Feel free to google "3 tenses to salvation" and watch how many articles come up.


You turn salvation into probation and receiving eternal life into type 2 works salvation. The one who stands victorious in the end is the same one who truly has been saved through faith. Romans 8:30 - Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. *ALL of them.

I am not full of contradictions. You are just full of confusion. Those who have been saved from the penalty of sin are still being saved from the power of sin because believers are going through the process of ongoing sanctification (work out your salvation) throughout their lifetime. It's not work for your salvation as works-salvationists teach. 1 Corinthians 6:11 - Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. That is positional sanctification, yet there is also progressive sanctification in which the reality of that holiness becomes more and more evident in our actions, words, thoughts, attitudes, and motives.

1 Thessalonians 4:3-4, - For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain (present tense) from sexual immorality; that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor. So becoming washed, sanctified and justified in Christ is a one time event, yet abstaining from sexual immorality and becoming more holy in our behavior is not a one time event. Here is how I see it. The believer possess a positional, judicial standing of righteousness in Christ and, second, a remaining need for practical, progressive holiness in our behavior. We will reach ultimate or final sanctification when we receive our glorified bodies.

You just don't get it because you read the scriptures through the lens of works salvation.

You confuse descriptive passages of scripture with prescriptive passages of scripture, which a common error made by works-salvationists.

In Revelation 14:12, the Amplified Bible reads - Here is [encouragement for] the steadfast endurance of the saints (God’s people), those who habitually keep God’s commandments and their faith in Jesus. The NASB reads - Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep (Greek word "tereo" - guard, observe, watch over) the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus. (descriptive of genuine believers) 13 And I heard a voice from heaven, saying, “Write, ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on!’” “Yes,” says the Spirit, “so that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow with them.”

You really stress "remain" to imply it's such a difficult burden to do so, which is typical from the mindset of type 2 works salvation. Also, their deeds follow them as the fruit of salvation, but not as the means of salvation. I usually hear SDA's quote Revelation 14:12 and stress commandment keeping as the means of obtaining salvation.

BTW did you ever come to understand that from the context of Romans 5:18 all men in Adam are condemned, and all men in Christ are justified? I will NEVER forget our conversation on Romans 5:18 in which you misinterpreted that verse to mean that one righteous act by Christ resulted in justification and life (automatically) for all people (including unbelievers). I almost fell out of my chair when I first heard you say that!



https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...tion-can-be-lost.185786/page-162#post-4021360

Straw man argument. Completely ignoring these exhortations of Paul would demonstrate an unrepentant, unbelieving heart. "I'm saved, but I completely ignore these exhortations from Paul" is an oxymoron.

I would say biased observation. Holy living involves works, yet we are not saved based on the merits of works which are produced from holy living. Believers should absolutely strive to live holy lives, which is part of our ongoing sanctification, but we must never fall into the trap of believing that we are "holier than thou" so based on that, the Lord will surely save me based on my performance, yet other believers fall short of my personal holy standard, so surely they won't be saved. This is where works salvation becomes a snare.

God chastises his sons and daughters....they are adopted and stay adopted.

It was a simple Y/N answer. Not a straw man. You pulled back to your safety zone instead of answering this question. Please, answer the question.

Straw man arguments get neither a Yes or No answer. It's a trap. You sound like a lawyer. They want yes or no answers ONLY regardless of the details, which is designed to trap the person on trial and win their case at all costs.

Straw man arguments get neither a Yes or No answer. It's a trap. You sound like a lawyer. They want yes or no answers ONLY regardless of the details, which is designed to trap the person on trial and win their case at all costs.