Five-Fold (or Four-Fold) Ministry

I think I have address my position and provide as to why. Let’s not get off on topic with regards to other scripture. You said that you have experienced these things. That would give someone the belief they are true. What have you experienced?

1 COR 6:10 & 1 COR 5:11 & MAT 5:21

I think I have address my position and provide as to why. Let’s not get off on topic with regards to other scripture. You said that you have experienced these things. That would give someone the belief they are true. What have you experienced

1 COR 6:10 & 1 COR 5:11 & MAT 5:21

I think you got your posters mixed up. I was asking him if the scriptures on spiritual gifts have to say they are still in effect after the first century, do other passages like not murdering or overseers not being drunks apply today? No one was arguing that they can be drunks. I was just making a point that these scriptures for the church apply to us.

Five-fold (or four-fold) ministry.

Ephesians 4 tells us of Christ ascending on high and giving gifts unto men (Paul's paraphrase from the Psalms where He ascends on high and receives gifts for men.) Some of the gifts are listed in verse 11, apostles, prophets, evangelists, prophets and teachers.

Some churches nowadays teach that these are active ministries for the church. Let us consider this and consider what these ministries are.

Apostles:
'Apostle' means 'sent one.' In Matthew 9, Jesus says to pray the Lord of the harvest to send forth laborers into His harvest. Then He prays all night, and chooses 12 of His disciples, calling them apostles. He sends them out telling them to heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, and cast out devils. He tells them to preach 'Repent for the kingdom of heaven as at hand' as they went into towns and villages. Mark first calls these sent ones 'apostles' after they return from their mission.

Saul of Tarsus saw the risen Lord and was told that he would testify of the Lord before Israel and the Gentiles. Years later, the Spirit spoke to a number of prophets and teachers in Antioch. Among them were Saul and Barnabas. Acts 13 opens telling us how the Spirit spoke to these men, telling them to separate Barnabas and Saul for the work to which the Spirit called them.

They go from city to city, preaching in synagogues and market places, proclaiming that Jesus is the Messiah. They encouraged churches that formed, and returned and appointed elders. They returned to Antioch having completed the assignment they were given. Paul and Barnabas are first called 'apostles' in Acts after they had begun this journey and ministry (Acts 14:4;14.)

Generally, in scripture, apostles laid foundations of the church. Paul and Barnabas, Silas and Timothy (I Thes. 1:1, and II Thes. 2:6) were referred to as apostles. Also, it is likely that Paul includes Apollos as an apostle in I Corinthians 4:9, given the context.

In II Corinthians 10, we see that the authors had a 'measure of rule' that extended to the Corinthians because they had gone as far as them with the Gospel, and wanted to extend their measure further by being assisted to go further and reach more places with the Gospel. Paul wrote in I Corinthians 9 that they were the seal of his apostleship in the Lord. Apparently, the fact that they had converted and existed as a church was evidence that the Lord sent him. Earlier in the book, he tells them that had many teachers, but not many fathers, for in the Gospel he had become their father. I see these concepts as tied up with Paul's apostleship. The church existed through Paul's apostolic gift. He was sent to preach and evangelize, and through his and his apostolic coworker's ministry, the church came into being.

The role of 'apostle' has to do with being sent by the Lord. Often, it involves preaching and what we now call 'church planting.' There were the twelve apostles, but also apostles given as gifts after the ascension as we see in Ephesians 4.

Prophets
There many examples of prophets in the Old Testament. Peter described them when he said 'holy men of old spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.' (or were carried long by the Holy Ghost.) The same words for 'prophet' and 'prophesy' are used to refer to New Testament phenomenon as Old Testament phenomenon, so we should not think that the meaning of the words drastically changed. Genuine prophesying refers to language or communication that occurs as one is moved by the Holy Ghost.

Prophets, like other believers, are supposed to be allowed to speak in the assembly ('in church.') I Corinthians 14 gives 'commandments of the Lord' for church meetings. Verse 26 shows that this is about meetings where 'every one of you' has a psalm, doctrine, tongue, revelation, or interpretation. The passage specifically commands to let the prophets speak two or three and let the other judge. Prophecy is revelatory. The next verse says if a revelation comes to one sitting by, let the first hold his peace. The next verse continues for ye may all prophesy one by one....

Prophets have a special ministry related to prophecy and sometimes other revelatory gifts also.

Evangelists
Ephesians 4:11 mentions evangelists, gifts from Christ. Acts 8 tells of Philip, who went down to Samaria and preached Christ, doing signs and wonders. He preached and won many converts in a city there, baptizing them, and and leaving 'follow up' for the apostles from Jerusalem. He also ministered one on one and evangelized a eunuch who was curious about Isaiah 53. He baptized the man and disappeared. He reappeared elsewhere preaching.. II Timothy 4:5 tells Timothy to do the work of an evangelist but does not directly call him one.

From this we can gather that evangelists have a ministry of preaching the Gospel to those who have not yet believed it, bringing them to faith. An evangelist can speak and exhort the church like any other brother should be able to.

Pastors and teachers
Because of the way Ephesians 4:11 is written, many interpreters take this verse to be referring to one group of those who are both pastors and teachers. This passage is talking about a gift, and does not specify a church office. In Geneva, it became the custom to refer to priests/presbyters/elders as 'pastors'. They called their city government officials elders. Presbyterians copied the system on a national level, modifying city government officials as a church office, and creating a lot of confusion as to what church roles actually are.

'Pastors' here translates a word elsewhere translated 'shepherds'. Shepherds in Luke were watching their flocks by night. The picture is of those who take care of sheep. Paul instructed the elders of Ephesus to pastor the flock of God over Whom the Holy Ghost had made them bishops/overseers. Peter commanded the elders to pastor the flock of God. Jesus told Peter to pastor His sheep. Paul wrote of his own ministry, 'who pastors a flock and does not drink of the milk of the flock?'

Pastoral ministry is therefore a component of the elder/overseer role and also the role of apostles. That does not mean that someone could not have a gift to pastor but not yet be ordained. Ephesians 4:11 is a list of gifts to the church. In addition, to be an overseer, one must have certain life experiences and live up to certain lifestyle qualifications.

What I do not see in scripture is the idea that 'apostle' is a gift to have authority over church leaders, to have that special anointing to come in and take over other churches that one had no part in founding at all. I do not see where 'evangelist' or 'prophet' means someone who must have a leadership role on a church board.

I believe some people on the missions field and some involved in church planting have an apostolic gift. God may communicate their call to it, have them sent out also through the church, and empower and authorize them to preach and start new ministries. I seek to understand what the term 'apostle' means in scripture, not from the perspective of someone reading a 20th century book on the church agreeing on the canon using later criteria.

There was a girl in school a year a head of me who had vision problems, severely crossed eyes and 'coke bottle' classes that made her eyes look many times larger because they were strong magnifying glasses. We went to a Christian school affiliated with our church. An evangelist laid hands on her. I saw with my own eyes that her eyes were normal. She said that he laid hands on her and she was healed. She wasn't wearing her glasses and did not bump into anything.

Along the lines of prophecy, I've heard a lot of prophecies that were encouraging and edifying. Some 'made manifest the secrets' of people's hearts, including my own. Plenty of people have prophesied about me having the gift of teaching, which I know I do. That's a pretty normal thing for me to experience. Also, I've experienced prophecies that addressed what I had been thinking, even repeating it back to me. Occasionally, prophecies may predict future events.

Occasionally, prophecies can contain really specific details. I went to a few meetings where a guest speaker ministered who got incredibly detailed words of knowledge and prophecies. I remember he prophesied over a teenager who had refused it at first, all kinds of detail. He then prayed for her and started praying for her friend Toby who apparently drove pretty wild. Her and her sister were shocked and started cracking up laughing at how specific it was. He prophesied over parents over the land they were going to buy and build a house on. This was before they purchased the prophecy. He described the water on the land and mentioned my dad's boat. His prayer also talked about my dad's electrical work. My parents did not know anyone who went there but me, and I hadn't told them he was an electrician. That was unusually detailed. He went on for hours like that.

I worked with a woman who went to church there, a church that had lots of college students, who would fill me in on details, whispering "He is going to work on a cruise ship this summer" or "He's going to work at a summer camp" after the man prophesied about those topics.

Much of my experience with prophecy though has been with words directed toward the congregation. I've experienced a prophecy repeating my thoughts back to me with that, too. One time we were singing 'Give glory, and honor, and power unto him. Jesus, the name above all names." back when I was a teen I did not realize that was in Revelation, and I thought 'how do you give power unto God.' Then someone prophesied or gave an interpretation that said something like, "You have said in your heart, how do you give power unto God..." maybe I thought "Jesus" and the prophecy said "Jesus" rather than "God". This was quite a while back.

I mention these things because the are obviously supernatural when you witness them, especially if you know the people involved.

This post was kind of random and all over the place. I've experienced hundreds of things like this. I've also experienced some very specific answers to prayer, too.

I have pointed out that you have not backed up your reasons why with scripture. (e.g. where does the Bible teach that the Bible replaces the gifts it teaches about?) The other issue was that you had not experienced these gifts.

As far as prophets go, there are no prophets here as of this day, and why would there be a need for prophets, as Jesus gave us the Comforter, the Holy Spirit once we accepted Him as our Lord and Savior, why would there be a need for prophets when WE are to be the once preaching and proclaiming the Gospel of Jesus to the whole world? Remember what Jesus told the Pharisees, and the Saduccess, that in old times, they had the prophets Elijah and Moses, but there was no need for prophets anymore, because Jesus had come in the flesh, and the Holy Spirit would follow after him!

And I agree, anyone who would claim to be prophet from God, I would highly suggest prayer for, because that person only fools themselves into foolish thinking.

If it is still operation, why are there no new revelations from God? Who are these prophets/apostles?

The early Church needed these “Gifts” to be seen in order to validate the Gospel. There was no Bible at that time. Paul whom was probably the greatest Apostle had to have a supernatural experience in order for Him to become a Christian. We have the Bible now and hence no need for that until the Tribulation.

You are mixing up the revealed Word of God (which is established and unchanging) versus Prophecies and Prophetic Words given.

In the first instance we have the bible and there is no need to add to this, nor should anything be taken away. It is profitable for teaching and instruction.

Then we have person or nation specific prophecies. These prophecies, if they be genuine, will never contradict the revealed Word of God. The word prophet means (to speak the words of God) and it usually operates with the gifts of the spirit. There are 9 gifts of the Spirit, and 5 of these relate to prophesying (1. Word of Wisdom, 2. Word of Knowledge, 3. Prophecy, 4. Gift of Tongues, 5. Interpretation of Tongues). In each of these 5, we have the Word of God in operation and from God.)

These prophets are within the body of Christ (the Body of Christ belongs to God, with Jesus as the head). Jesus' desire is for His body to walk in these giftings.

So too are there Apostles today. What you might find is that the authentic ones today have no need to put the word Apostle next to their names. But they are operating in the Body.

As far as prophets go, there are no prophets here as of this day, and why would there be a need for prophets, as Jesus gave us the Comforter, the Holy Spirit once we accepted Him as our Lord and Savior, why would there be a need for prophets when WE are to be the once preaching and proclaiming the Gospel of Jesus to the whole world? Remember what Jesus told the Pharisees, and the Saduccess, that in old times, they had the prophets Elijah and Moses, but there was no need for prophets anymore, because Jesus had come in the flesh, and the Holy Spirit would follow after him!

And I agree, anyone who would claim to be prophet from God, I would highly suggest prayer for, because that person only fools themselves into foolish thinking.

As for actual Apostles, they were commission by Jesus Himself for the specific purpose of starting His Church. Since the Church has been found and flourished, Apostles are no longer needed.

REV 19:10 FOR the testimony of JESUS is the spirit of PROPHECY. SO I believe that people are still are prophesying today. When we see things that is going to happen in the BIBLE, And we tell other people, That it is going to happen, By faith that we have in the BIBLE, I think we are prophesying.

Show me where the Bible teaches this. After Jesus sent the twelve, they replaced one of them. Wasn't the church found and flourishing at that point? Jesus then appeared to Saul of Tarsus. The Spirit sent forth Barnabas and Saul and scripture then calls them apostles. Wasn't the church found and flourishing at that point? Later, Paul, Sivanus, and Timothy write a letter in which they refer to themselves as 'apostles of Christ' (I Th. 1:1;2:6.)

In Matthew 13, Jesus said, "Behold, I send unto you prophets, wise men, and scribes...."

In Acts 11, we read that prophets went from Jerusalem to Antioch. Agabus stood up and prophesied a famine. We see Agabus prophesied about Paul being bound later in Acts. Acts 15 identifies two men who the apostles sent to deliver their letter to the Gentiles as prophets. These men were Silas and Judas. Silas later traveled with Paul.

After Christ ascended, He sent the Spirit. Ephesians 4 says that Christ ascended and gave gifts unto men. One of those gifts was prophets. I Corinthians 12 mentions prophets among the ministries in the church. I Corinthians 14 commands the church to let the prophets speak two or three and to let the other judge.

In Acts 2, Peter quoted from the book of Joel that 'your sons and daughters would prophesy.' After Joshua forbad elders from prophesying in the camp, two elders who were not present with Moses when the LORD took of the spirit that was upon him and put it on the elders who were in attendance, Moses said would that all the LORD's people were prophets and that the LORD would put His Spirit upon them. (Numbers 11:29). Paul also wrote, "I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied...'

I have already answered with regards to the show me the scripture question. Again, we’re taking about the Apostolic age of the church. After that was the Nicene period which had a bunch of other issues.

Paul alludes to the notion of the responsibilities of the Church Deacons and Overseers. No mention of Apostles or Prophets.
1 Timothy
1 Corinthians.

I believe I looked through every post of yours after you posted this. All I could find in the way of scripture is this:


I Timothy reminds Timothy, that by the prophetic words spoken over him, he is to fight a good warfare.
I Corinthians talks about the role of prophets in the church. It says, "Let the prophets speak two or three and let the other judge.'

In I Thessalonians 1:1 and 2:6 Paul, Timothy and Silas say they write the epistle, then refer to themselves 'as apostles of Christ.' I Timothy is written from one apostle to another. Part of this includes instructions on the apostolic duty of appointing elders. Apostles appointed elders in Acts 14 also.

What I see is I post scripture, and you post some reason in your mind as to why you think these gifts are no longer needed, but offer no scripture to support your theory. i cannot see where the Bible teaches that if we have scripture we do not need prophets or the gift of prophecy. If you were taught that all your life, it may seem axiomatic. But I wasn't taught that and it does not seem axiomatic. And the apostles did not teach that, so it did not seem obvious to the early church, which continued to believe in and experience prophecy after the twelve apostles passed away. Check out the Didache, Justin Martyr, the Shephard of Hermas, Eusebius Ecclesiastical History including the quotes from Ireneaus.

I don’t recall anything about the continuation of the “Pentecost”.