Eschatological and Millennial Theories and their problems.

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Dave-L

Dave-L

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#1
Jan 17, 2020
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#1
I believe every eschatology or millennial theory rests on one error. They claim the Kingdom of God is physical and not spiritual. So all try to build a physical kingdom on earth in Christ’s name. This includes some Amillennialists, all Postmillennialists, and all Premillennialists who look for a physical kingdom of the future that will last 1000 years.

But scripture teaches the Kingdom is here now - spiritually. It is not of this world. And it is everlasting. Not merely 1000 years long. That it would be while David is buried, before the resurrection on the last day.

“And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.” 2 Samuel 7:12–13 (KJV 1900)

Some Amillennialists say the kingdom is here now, but err by saying it is physical. And this led to the Church and State persecution of innocent people by the Catholics over the centuries, and by the Lutheran and Reformed Church States to a lesser degree.

The Postmillennialists say the same thinking the Church will finally influence and dominate civil laws and magistrates. A sort of "Christianized" world. Some Dominion Postmillennial groups plan a violent takeover of the world.

Premillennialist and Dispensationalists see a physical kingdom ruling the world by force after Jesus returns. A Christianized Taliban of sorts.

But the common error in all groups is the physical kingdom and the comingling of Church and State that Jesus keeps separate when he says his kingdom is not of this world.
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

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#2
Dave-L said:
But the common error in all groups is the physical kingdom and the comingling of Church and State that Jesus keeps separate when he says his kingdom is not of this world.
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Taking one verse out of context and building your theory on that is not only naive but FOOLISH.

Before you proceed any further with this just back up and do a serious study of Bible prophecy from Genesis to Revelation. Without your faulty preconceptions.
 
Dave-L

Dave-L

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#3
Jan 17, 2020
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Nehemiah6 said:
Taking one verse out of context and building your theory on that is not only naive but FOOLISH.

Before you proceed any further with this just back up and do a serious study of Bible prophecy from Genesis to Revelation. Without your faulty preconceptions.
Click to expand...
Jesus refuted all millennial theories in the gospels. Premillennialism/Dispensationalism comes from the Pharisee's millennial teachings and worse. If you can find one scripture in the gospels or epistles that teach a future physical kingdom, I'll retract this claim. But Jesus taught the kingdom is spiritual, now present, and only the born again can see it.
 
A

Adstar

Senior Member
#5
Jul 24, 2016
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#5
Dave-L said:
I believe every eschatology or millennial theory rests on one error. They claim the Kingdom of God is physical and not spiritual.
Click to expand...
False.. I believe in a coming 1000 year kingdom on earth ruled over by a returned Jesus i Also believe that the Kingdom is Spiritual So there i put to rest this false report of the beliefs of people who believe in the coming 1000 year kingdom on earth..


But scripture teaches the Kingdom is here now - spiritually. It is not of this world. And it is everlasting.Not merely 1000 years long.
Click to expand...
As a millennial believer i believe the Kingdom is now - spiritually.. And since i am a spiritual member of that kingdom along with all other true Christians on earth then it is of this world.. Saying that it is not present in this world is saying there are no Christians in this world.. As a millennial believer i believe the Kingdom is everlasting. Not merely 1000 years long.. NO millennial believer i have ever conversed with believes that the Kingdom ends at the end of the 1000 years.. NONE whatsoever.. portraying that as a belief of millennial believers is a clear misrepresentation..


Some Amillennialists say the kingdom is here now, but err by saying it is physical. And this led to the Church and State persecution of innocent people by the Catholics over the centuries, and by the Lutheran and Reformed Church States to a lesser degree.
Click to expand...
Yes the kingdom is physical because i am a Christian living in this world and thus the kingdom is spiritual and physical.. And as an ex-catholic i will never declare that false religion as the fulfillment of the kingdom so don't you worry about that..

The Postmillennialists say the same thinking the Church will finally influence and dominate civil laws and magistrates. A sort of "Christianized" world. Some Dominion Postmillennial groups plan a violent takeover of the world.
Click to expand...
And they shall fail.. Dominionism is a false preaching.. Jesus will defeat the forces of satan and establish the Kingdom on earth by His might and power and he shall rule the world with a Ron of Iron.. All glory, All praise, all honour is rightfully directed to Him and not to any group of Christians on earth.. The Kingdom is the gift of Jesus to us.. Not our gift to Him..

But the common error in all groups is the physical kingdom and the comingling of Church and State that Jesus keeps separate when he says his kingdom is not of this world.
Click to expand...
The Kingdoms of this world are currently not the kingdom of Jesus.. But one day the kingdoms of this world will come under the direct rule of the LORD Jesus.. Believe the following verse::

(Revelation 11:15) "And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."
 
JohnR7

JohnR7

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Dec 30, 2019
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Dave-L said:
They claim the Kingdom of God is physical and not spiritual.
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Everything in the Bible is literal and symbolic. God created the world in a literal 6 days and those days contain all of time and history.

" This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen Him go into heaven.”(Acts 1:12) We know that this was a literal event that Jesus was taken up to Heaven. Yet you think His return will be spiritual and not literal. Did not Jesus settle this with doubting Thomas that He was a real person?

"And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, From east to west, Making a very large valley; Half of the mountain shall move toward the north And half of it toward the south." (Zechariah 14:4)

Zechariah tells us that there will be a very literal earthquake take place when Jesus returns. Yet you think His return is spiritual and not literal? His literal feet do not touch the ground? Dispensationalists believe that the Church age, the Time of the Gentiles, The Holy Spirit dispensation is 2,000 years. The Kindom age when Jesus returns to the Earth will be 1,000 years.

Jesus keeps separate when he says his kingdom is not of this world.
Click to expand...
The Kingdom age is all about the Kingdoms of this world becoming the Kingdoms of God. That is what we believe is happening right now in our Government.
 

Attachments

JohnR7

JohnR7

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#7
Dec 30, 2019
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#7
Adstar said:
As a millennial believer i believe the Kingdom is everlasting. Not merely 1000 years long..
Click to expand...
In Rev 21:1 there is a new heaven and a new earth. This is after the 1,000 year kingdom age. We continue to rule and reign with Christ.
 
Dave-L

Dave-L

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#8
Jan 17, 2020
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#8
JohnR7 said:
Everything in the Bible is literal and symbolic. God created the world in a literal 6 days and those days contain all of time and history.

" This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen Him go into heaven.”(Acts 1:12) We know that this was a literal event that Jesus was taken up to Heaven. Yet you think His return will be spiritual and not literal. Did not Jesus settle this with doubting Thomas that He was a real person?

"And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, From east to west, Making a very large valley; Half of the mountain shall move toward the north And half of it toward the south." (Zechariah 14:4)

Zechariah tells us that there will be a very literal earthquake take place when Jesus returns. Yet you think His return is spiritual and not literal? His literal feet do not touch the ground? Dispensationalists believe that the Church age, the Time of the Gentiles, The Holy Spirit dispensation is 2,000 years. The Kindom age when Jesus returns to the Earth will be 1,000 years.

The Kingdom age is all about the Kingdoms of this world becoming the Kingdoms of God. That is what we believe is happening right now in our Government.
Click to expand...
You need to study to determine which is literal and which is spiritual. Jesus taught a spiritual kingdom only. This forces a symbolic view of the kingdom's prophecies. Another point is how many of the 90 some OT prophecies happened as written? Very few indeed. Whitelaw says only 12. So this should help understand why prophecy cannot be understood until after fulfillment according to Jesus.

“Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am he.” John 13:19 (KJV 1900)
 
Dave-L

Dave-L

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#9
Jan 17, 2020
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Adstar said:
False.. I believe in a coming 1000 year kingdom on earth ruled over by a returned Jesus i Also believe that the Kingdom is Spiritual So there i put to rest this false report of the beliefs of people who believe in the coming 1000 year kingdom on earth..




As a millennial believer i believe the Kingdom is now - spiritually.. And since i am a spiritual member of that kingdom along with all other true Christians on earth then it is of this world.. Saying that it is not present in this world is saying there are no Christians in this world.. As a millennial believer i believe the Kingdom is everlasting. Not merely 1000 years long.. NO millennial believer i have ever conversed with believes that the Kingdom ends at the end of the 1000 years.. NONE whatsoever.. portraying that as a belief of millennial believers is a clear misrepresentation..




Yes the kingdom is physical because i am a Christian living in this world and thus the kingdom is spiritual and physical.. And as an ex-catholic i will never declare that false religion as the fulfillment of the kingdom so don't you worry about that..



And they shall fail.. Dominionism is a false preaching.. Jesus will defeat the forces of satan and establish the Kingdom on earth by His might and power and he shall rule the world with a Ron of Iron.. All glory, All praise, all honour is rightfully directed to Him and not to any group of Christians on earth.. The Kingdom is the gift of Jesus to us.. Not our gift to Him..



The Kingdoms of this world are currently not the kingdom of Jesus.. But one day the kingdoms of this world will come under the direct rule of the LORD Jesus.. Believe the following verse::

(Revelation 11:15) "And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."
Click to expand...
The final proof of my claim is no mention of a physical kingdom by Jesus in the gospels. Or any mention of it in the epistles. It is always spiritual.
 
P

pottersclay

Guest
#10
#10
So what ha
Dave-L said:
The final proof of my claim is no mention of a physical kingdom by Jesus in the gospels. Or any mention of it in the epistles. It is always spiritual.
Click to expand...
So what happens to the survivors of the tribulation?
What happens to Israel and their redemption?
What about the promised restoration of the earth after the war?
Why does Jesus rule with a iron rod spiritualy?
Satan is loosed spiritually after a thousand yrs?
Remembering that God is a spirit and outside of time how is a thousand yrs. Measured spiritualy?
 
Dave-L

Dave-L

Banned
#11
Jan 17, 2020
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#11
pottersclay said:
So what ha

So what happens to the survivors of the tribulation?
What happens to Israel and their redemption?
What about the promised restoration of the earth after the war?
Why does Jesus rule with a iron rod spiritualy?
Satan is loosed spiritually after a thousand yrs?
Remembering that God is a spirit and outside of time how is a thousand yrs. Measured spiritualy?
Click to expand...
>There is no 7-year tribulation. It lasts throughout the New Covenant era.

>The Church is Israel and God restores us on the last day in the resurrection of believers (biblical Israel) into the New Heavens and Earth.

>Is Jesus God? If so, he rules the nations with a rod of iron now as always.

> Christ bound Satan from deceiving the gentiles when the gospel went global.

> the 1000 years are not the Kingdom. Satan attacks the kingdom when they end.
 
J

John146

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#12
Jan 13, 2016
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#12
Dave-L said:
Jesus refuted all millennial theories in the gospels. Premillennialism/Dispensationalism comes from the Pharisee's millennial teachings and worse. If you can find one scripture in the gospels or epistles that teach a future physical kingdom, I'll retract this claim. But Jesus taught the kingdom is spiritual, now present, and only the born again can see it.
Click to expand...
A physical salvation for the Jews, not just a spiritual salvation. Your mistake is equating the kingdom of God with the physical kingdom of heaven.

Luke 1
67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,
68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,
69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;
70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:
71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;
72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;
73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,
74 That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,
75 In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.
 
KhedetOrthos

KhedetOrthos

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Dec 13, 2019
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#13
Accurate Eschatology: Jesus is coming back. He'll tell us what He's going to do next when he gets here. Matthew 24 is a view of this single event from the earthly perspective, Revelation 19 from a heavenly perspective. That's really about all there is to it. Beyond that, we need to be focused more on what sort of soil we are than the headlines.
 
Dave-L

Dave-L

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#14
Jan 17, 2020
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#14
John146 said:
A physical salvation for the Jews, not just a spiritual salvation. Your mistake is equating the kingdom of God with the physical kingdom of heaven.

Luke 1
67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,
68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,
69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;
70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:
71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;
72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;
73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,
74 That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,
75 In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.
Click to expand...
The kingdom of God and the Kingdom of heaven are the same kingdom.

“From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” (Matthew 4:17)

“And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.” (Mark 1:15)
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#15
Jan 13, 2016
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#15
Dave-L said:
The kingdom of God and the Kingdom of heaven are the same kingdom.

“From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” (Matthew 4:17)

“And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.” (Mark 1:15)
Click to expand...
Nope. Jesus often spoke of both. They will both be realized at the second coming of the Lord. The physical, earthly kingdom, the restoration of the kingdom of Israel, is promised to the nation of Israel. It's a physical deliverance from their enemies so they can worship God without fear. The rightful king will be sitting on the physical throne of David. This is not a spiritual throne.

Jesus didn't rebuke the disciples for such a question for it's going to happen.

Acts 1
6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

Plus, you didn't address the physical salvation promised in Luke 1.
 
A

Adstar

Senior Member
#16
Jul 24, 2016
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#16
JohnR7 said:
In Rev 21:1 there is a new heaven and a new earth. This is after the 1,000 year kingdom age. We continue to rule and reign with Christ.
Click to expand...
No we cease to rule..

After the 1000 years is the final judgement and all people will either be perfected eternal beings existing with Jesus in the New Jerusalem .. Or they will be in the lake of fire in torment forever.. The time when we Saints are ruling over other human beings is during the 1000 years.. That ends when the 1000 years will be OVER..

The LORD Jesus will still be ruling us in eternity after the 1000 years is over, but all saved Saints shall be equal in the eternal kingdom.. We Saints will not be ruling over anyone because the only people in the Kingdom in eternity will be Saints..

The reason we are ruling with Jesus during the 1000 years is because we will be ruling over normal human beings.. And Jesus will be ruling them ( normal human beings ) with a Rod of Iron.. Jesus will never be ruling over His beloved Saints with a Rod of Iron.. He will have no need to rule over the perfected Saints with an Rod of Iron..
 
A

Adstar

Senior Member
#17
Jul 24, 2016
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#17
Dave-L said:
The final proof of my claim is no mention of a physical kingdom by Jesus in the gospels. Or any mention of it in the epistles. It is always spiritual.
Click to expand...
Well then if we are going to be just spirits with no physical bodies then why shall we need the following?

Revelation 22: KJV
1"And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. {2} In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations."

This is right at the end of the Bible.. the Last chapter of the Bible and the last judgement has happned and we are living in the New Jerusalem and in it there is the tree of life and trees that have leaves we will be consuming to heal us.. Why will we need healing? Why will we need access to the Tree of Life??? Because we shall be living beings living on a New Physical earth..
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#18
Jan 13, 2016
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#18
Dave-L said:
The kingdom of God and the Kingdom of heaven are the same kingdom.

“From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” (Matthew 4:17)

“And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.” (Mark 1:15)
Click to expand...
These aren't spiritual kingdoms, but physical. Christ has returned to rule and reign on the physical earth.

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
 
Dave-L

Dave-L

Banned
#19
Jan 17, 2020
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#19
John146 said:
These aren't spiritual kingdoms, but physical. Christ has returned to rule and reign on the physical earth.

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Click to expand...
This is not true. To prove your point you need to find at least one physical kingdom reference in the gospels or epistles. Physical kingdoms can not be ruled over forever and ever. They are destroyed by fire on the last day.
 
tanakh

tanakh

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#20
Dec 1, 2015
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#20
When Jesus had the conversation with Pilate his reply to him about his kingdom not being of this world was said in the
context of Pilates understanding of worldly kings and kingdoms.

Pilate entered the praetorium again and called Jesus
and said to him are you the king of the Jews?
Jesus answered do you say this of your own accord
or did others say it to you about me? Pilate answered
am I a Jew? Your own nation and the chief priests have
handed you over to me. What have you done?
Jesus answered My kingship is not of this world
if my kingship were of this world my servants
would fight that I might not be handed over to the Jews
but my kingship is not of this world. Pilate said to him
So you are a king? Jesus answered You say I am a King
for this I was born and for this I have come into the
world to bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is
of the truth hears my voice. Pilate said to him What is
truth?

John 18: 33-38 RSV


The Kingdom of Heaven is anywhere that God is present. God is spirit and those who have the Holy Spirit within them
also have the kingdom. God was present in Eden, in the Tabernacle, and in the stone Temples. When Jesus came he was
present in him. Since then God and the kingdom of heaven resides in believers.
 
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