Not By Works

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VCO

VCO

Senior Member
#132,541
Oct 14, 2013
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#132,541
gb9 said:
so, now you are a judeaizer teaching lordship salvation.


that is a good one-

2 bogus religious that push fear and control and being judgemental.

fits you like a t.
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NOW YOU ARE TREADING MY CORE BELIEF. BECAUSE LORDSHIP SALVATION, has NOTHING TO DO WITH WORKS OR DEEDS.

IT ONLY MEANS, ONE WHO HAS RECEIVED JESUS AS LORD OF HIS LIFE, PURELY OUT OF AGAPE LOVE.


You have to define WHAT YOU MEAN BY LORDSHIP SALVATION ? ? ?

I KNOW what it MEANS TO ME, but I do not know what it means to you.

1586544706407.jpeg

I MEAN THIS IS THE ONLY WAY TO SALVATION THAT EXISTS, and ANYTIME you have THIS in YOUR HEART and the VERY MOMENT you confess that reality to ANYONE, YOU ARE SAVED in that instant:


Romans 10:9-11 (NASB)
9 that if you confess {NOT JUST PROFESS IT, it ABSOLUTELY must have Happened in your HEART (human spirit) FIRST for it to be a CONFESSION.} with your mouth Jesus as Lord, {LORD means MASTER, and if out of pure AGAPE LOVE, you have not willing have surrendered to JESUS AS LORD, then you are STILL lord of your own life, NOT HIM.} and believe in your heart {a reference that new born Human Spirit.} that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, {you inherit HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS, the very moment YOU BELIEVE in you Heart, which is the Born Again Human Spirit.} and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."


THAT IS WHAT IT MEANS BY LORDSHIP SALVATION, WHICH BEGINS RECEIVING HIM AS LORD OF YOUR LIFE, THE MOMENT YOU BELIEVE,
AND ENDS WITH BEING IMMERSED INTO THE SPIRITUAL BODY OF JESUS CHRIST BY THE HOLY SPIRIT, A MOMENT LATER.



I am sick and tired of the False Teachers laying claim to OUR TERMINOLOGY, and REDEFINING THEM!

False Teachers LAID CLAIM to SALVATION, PERVERTED THAT TERM, linked it with WORKS AND DEEDS, & moved it to the end of your life.

False Teachers LAID CLAIM to BELIEVE, PERVERTED THAT TERM, & lowered it to SOMETHING FAR LESS that what the BIBLE MEANS.

False Teachers LAID CLAIM to RAPTURE, PERVERTED THAT TERM, lowered the meaning, to their own definition, & used it to make money.

False Teachers LAID CLAIM to OBEDIENCE, lowered it to something I MUST DO TO BE RIGHT WITH GOD, instead of: I want to Do it as an act of AGAPE LOVE.

FALSE TEACHERS CANNOT HAVE THAT TERM. LORDSHIP SALVATION is OFF LIMITS, it means too much to Evangelicals. I will put my foot down, and will fight if I HAVE TO. YOU ARE NOT GOING TO PERVERT THAT TERM, by meaning it HAS SOMETHING TO DO WITH WORKS OR DEEDS. IT DOES NOT MEAN ANYTHING MORE THAN I INCLUDED BETWEEN THE CROSSES.
 
J

Judges1318

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Nov 16, 2019
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#132,542
azamzimtoti said:
As Post said quoting Paul - those in Christ are dead to the Law, free and alive in the international waters of grace.
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Being dead to the law means you are no longer under it's authority power to make you sin and condemn you for that sin. Being dead to the law in no way means you do not have to fulfill it's righteous requirements (minus the ceremonial parts of the law, of course). A required fulfillment which we now do through the new way of the Holy Spirit and love or God, not in the old way of mere written words.
 
RebuildJesussChurch

RebuildJesussChurch

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#132,543
Judges1318 said:
Being dead to the law means you are no longer under it's authority power to make you sin and condemn you for that sin. Being dead to the law in no way means you do not have to fulfill it's righteous requirements (minus the ceremonial parts of the law, of course). A required fulfillment which we now do through the new way of the Holy Spirit and love or God, not in the old way of mere written words.
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Word. The new Way, in the Kingdom of God. Thank you Christ Jesus our Lord!
 
J

Judges1318

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Nov 16, 2019
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#132,548
posthuman said:
deleting jots and tittles = nullifying jots and tittles.
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In the way that you seem to be using the word 'nullify', no, deleting jots and tittles is not nullifying the law.

Jesus, and the book of Hebrews refers to the 'passing away' of the law, not the casting down of the law in a breaking of the law, but rather the law becoming obsolete and thus no longer needed:

17‘Do not suppose that I came to throw down the law or the prophets — I did not come to throw down, but to fulfill; 18for, verily I say to you, till that the heaven and the earth may pass away, one iota or one tittle may not pass away from the law, till that all may come to pass.

13 ...he has made the first (covenant) obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear." - Hebrews 8:13

10 ...a matter of food and drink and various ceremonial washings—external regulations applying until the time of the new order." - Hebrews 9:10

posthuman said:
in us the tzitzit and the burnt offerings and the shewbread and the taking of an egg but not the mother bird are all upheld.
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That is right.
Jesus' work on the cross does not break the law.
He Himself said He did not come to do that.

His work on the cross makes it so various laws are not required to be literally kept anymore, allowing them to 'pass away' from the law without breaking them, but at the same time fulfills them. For example, we have no outstanding debt of law concerning sacrifice for sin against us anymore. Jesus' work on the cross made it so we don't need to offer sacrifice for sin anymore. His work makes it so that lawful requirement is not only not required anymore, but makes it so that lawful requirement is marked 'fulfilled' on our heavenly record so that no charge of having broken the law can be made against the one who has faith in Christ.

It's all about taking those laws out of the way, and, not breaking them. Christ's work on the cross does both of those things.
 
J

Judges1318

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Nov 16, 2019
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#132,549
Lightskin said:
All he does is espouse the magnificence of his filthy rags works.
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No, if you would read his posts minus your grudge you'd see he boasts about what the Lord has done in him. But you and so many others in the church can only see the work of Christ in him as the boast of his own filthy rags of self-righteousness. I think it's because so few in the church have that work in their own lives. It's a kind of misguided envy toward those who actually find the narrow road to life that Christ talks about by those who haven't yet.
 
azamzimtoti

azamzimtoti

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Apr 3, 2019
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#132,551
Judges1318 said:
Being dead to the law means you are no longer under it's authority power to make you sin and condemn you for that sin. Being dead to the law in no way means you do not have to fulfill it's righteous requirements (minus the ceremonial parts of the law, of course). A required fulfillment which we now do through the new way of the Holy Spirit and love or God, not in the old way of mere written words.
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So you are keeping the Law through the HS - still works, however you try and spin it.

Just as you misconstrued the fulfilling of the Law by saying the jots and tittles are gone (which they are, the whole Law including the jots and tittles was accomplished in Christ).

(Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.)
 
azamzimtoti

azamzimtoti

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Judges1318 said:
His work on the cross makes it so various laws are not required to be literally kept anymore, allowing them to 'pass away' from the law without breaking them, but at the same time fulfills them. For example, we have no outstanding debt of law concerning sacrifice for sin against us anymore. Jesus' work on the cross made it so we don't need to offer sacrifice for sin anymore. His work makes it so that lawful requirement is not only not required anymore, but makes it so that lawful requirement is marked 'fulfilled' on our heavenly record so that no charge of having broken the law can be made against the one who has faith in Christ.

It's all about taking those laws out of the way, and, not breaking them. Christ's work on the cross does both of those things.
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facepalm2.gif

Oh boy, you are one of the most clueless lawyers I've seen on a forum.
 
Lightskin

Lightskin

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Judges1318 said:
No, if you would read his posts minus your grudge you'd see he boasts about what the Lord has done in him. But you and so many others in the church can only see the work of Christ in him as the boast of his own filthy rags of self-righteousness. I think it's because so few in the church have that work in their own lives. It's a kind of misguided envy toward those who actually find the narrow road to life that Christ talks about by those who haven't yet.
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I have no grudge against any works salvationists other than their denying Christ His due diligence. That ticks me off.
 
E

EleventhHour

Guest
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#132,554
Judges1318 said:
Being dead to the law means you are no longer under it's authority power to make you sin and condemn you for that sin. Being dead to the law in no way means you do not have to fulfill it's righteous requirements (minus the ceremonial parts of the law, of course). A required fulfillment which we now do through the new way of the Holy Spirit and love or God, not in the old way of mere written words.
Click to expand...
Being dead to the law in no way means you do not have to fulfill it's righteous requirements
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Yes this makes total sense to me and logical .. just do not know how I missed it .... must be one of those complex abstract concepts my brain cannot reach.
ce70820d8b4e902780cb26929f805ec0c94151b7b2453a7ff42fdc542608e807.0.png
 
SoulWeaver

SoulWeaver

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Oct 25, 2014
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#132,555
Isaiah 54:10 For the mountains shall depart, and the hills be removed; but my kindness shall not depart from thee, neither shall the covenant of my peace be removed, saith the LORD that hath mercy on thee.
 
azamzimtoti

azamzimtoti

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EleventhHour said:
Yes this makes total sense to me and logical .. just do not know how I missed it .... must be one of those complex abstract concepts my brain cannot reach.
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It's enough to make ya hair curl. I did miss that "bit" of worker wisdom - good catch Mary.

I was just thinking about the workers, it's almost as if they fit the "Martha Syndrome".

(Luke 10:38 Now it came to pass, as they went, that he entered into a certain village: and a certain woman named Martha received him into her house)

(Luke 10:39 And she had a sister called Mary, which also sat at Jesus' feet, and heard his word)

(Luke 10:40 But Martha was cumbered about much serving, and came to him, and said, Lord, dost thou not care that my sister hath left me to serve alone? bid her therefore that she help me)

(Luke 10:41 And Jesus answered and said unto her, Martha, Martha, thou art careful and troubled about many things)

(Luke 10:42 But one thing is needful: and Mary hath chosen that good part, which shall not be taken away from her)
 
VCO

VCO

Senior Member
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Oct 14, 2013
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#132,557
Lightskin said:
All he does is espouse the magnificence of his filthy rags works.
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FILTHY RAGS are working the deeds to make yourself RIGHT WITH GOD.

Worthy of Rewards of a Crown, are when you are SAVED in the Very Beginning OF FAITH, and afterwards, you decide YOU WANT TO SERVE HIM and others out of a PURE MOTIVE OF AGAPE LOVE as your ONLY MOTIVE.
 
posthuman

posthuman

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Judges1318 said:
In the way that you seem to be using the word 'nullify', no, deleting jots and tittles is not nullifying the law.

Jesus, and the book of Hebrews refers to the 'passing away' of the law, not the casting down of the law in a breaking of the law, but rather the law becoming obsolete and thus no longer needed:

17‘Do not suppose that I came to throw down the law or the prophets — I did not come to throw down, but to fulfill; 18for, verily I say to you, till that the heaven and the earth may pass away, one iota or one tittle may not pass away from the law, till that all may come to pass.

13 ...he has made the first (covenant) obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear." - Hebrews 8:13

10 ...a matter of food and drink and various ceremonial washings—external regulations applying until the time of the new order." - Hebrews 9:10


That is right.
Jesus' work on the cross does not break the law.
He Himself said He did not come to do that.

His work on the cross makes it so various laws are not required to be literally kept anymore, allowing them to 'pass away' from the law without breaking them, but at the same time fulfills them. For example, we have no outstanding debt of law concerning sacrifice for sin against us anymore. Jesus' work on the cross made it so we don't need to offer sacrifice for sin anymore. His work makes it so that lawful requirement is not only not required anymore, but makes it so that lawful requirement is marked 'fulfilled' on our heavenly record so that no charge of having broken the law can be made against the one who has faith in Christ.

It's all about taking those laws out of the way, and, not breaking them. Christ's work on the cross does both of those things.
Click to expand...

it sounds like He's nailed it to the cross, but we take it down, and yes there are holes poked in it from the nails and we don't keep those missing bits, but the rest still binds us.

what i'm saying is that we're totally outside of its jurisdiction now, it being the law of a covenant that has itself passed away.
a new law is given -- when Jesus said 'love one another' He called it "a new commandment" -- so when you looked at Romans and saw, have no debt but the continually outstanding one to love, you went to Leviticus 19 - tearing off a bit of that parchment nailed to the cross. but you needn't have done that: you could have gone straight to John 13.
John 13 fulfills all of Leviticus.

Jesus Christ is the LORD -- He gave a law to a disobedient people He redeemed out of Egypt. a people who doubted and cursed Him from the very day He brought them out. a law, precept upon precept, so that they would fall backward, be broken and snared.
then He came and fulfilled all the terms of that law, took up all the iniquity of the people, and shouldering it, offered Himself as a Lamb making a new promise, gathering a people to Himself from every nation, making them new. at that time He said 'a new commandment' and 'a new covenant'

it isn't the same law. righteousness is the same -- of course things in the law of the Sinai covenant which speak of righteousness speak of the same righteousness. but when i keep the command to love, i am keeping John 13, not Leviticus 19. and by doing so i fulfill all the righteous requirements of Deuteronomy and all of Leviticus. it doesn't mean i've got a few scraps of Numbers that i am under -- i'm not under any of it. it means the thing that i am under overlaps the thing that i'm not.

it's a jurisdictional freedom from the law, as we agree -- from Romans 7, because of Romans 6, culminating in Romans 8.
if it is jurisdictional, it isn't 'partially out of jurisdiction' -- it's entirely.

i have no disagreement about whether we are to have the same morality as the law teaches. what i disagree about is whether this comes from selected bits of Torah still being jurisdictionally binding on us. and this is my argument: we died to the law -- and we didn't 'just die a little bit' or 'die only to part of it' -- dead is dead. you don't tell a corpse, well you can get out of jury duty but you still owe property tax. :p
 
mailmandan

mailmandan

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#132,559
SoulWeaver said:
I was just going through this yesterday again,
John 10:28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

Of course that after they die, when they have finished their race already, they cannot perish or be plucked up; it's a little late then for devil's efforts to ruin them. So I really don't get it. If this isn't eternal security, where is God's glory, why would Jesus boast with something they are supposed to work out? I can't believe that people read this to mean basically:
"You will never be perished or snatched out of My hand, only if you manage to get to the end of the race on your own and prevent yourself on your own from being snatched up, then when you are dead no one will pluck you up". This honestly looks to me more like mockery of Christ, and not a promise at all.
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Some people turn this promise from Jesus in John 10:27-28 into a mockery by interpreting this way - My sheep hear My voice, (some of them hear My voice and some of them don't hear My voice) and I know them, (some of them I know and some of them I don't) and they follow Me. (some of them follow Me and some of them don't follow Me) And I give them eternal life, (some of them I give eternal life and some of them I don't give eternal life) and they shall never perish; (some of them will never perish and some of them will perish) neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. (some of them will not be snatched out of My hand and some of them will be snatched out of My hand).
 
posthuman

posthuman

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Judges1318 said:
Being dead to the law in no way means you do not have to fulfill it's righteous requirements (minus the ceremonial parts of the law, of course).
Click to expand...
see that sounds like, dead to the law, but only a little bit dead. well, maybe technically dead to the law, but really only dead to certain parts of the law.

what am i supposed to do with 'to the one who does no work but trusts in God who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness' ? if such a person isn't condemned from lack of works, but approved because of faith, does he have more holes poked in the law than a person who does have works? how is he not condemned? isn't it because he enters the kingdom through the same Door we all do - for there being no other Gate - that is, through being crucified with Christ?

i worry that if i go down this road of saying this part of the law is important, but that part is inconsequential, i'm no different than the one who is under the law, but breaks the least commandment and teachers others to do so. what else would i be if i start blacking out part of Exodus and highlighting other parts? the daily grain offering is on equal footing with the injunction to return a stray ox to its owner; both are imprints of Christ emblazoned on the scroll -- it's not by rigorously doing the things on one half of the page that i do righteousness; it's by abiding in Christ. Christ is the grain offering, speaking the words which are the bread of life, just as much as He is the keeper of the oxen without regard for ascribed ownership -- - all the bread is His, all the oxen are His. in Him i should pour out wine for a guest just as well as i should help a stranger push their car out of a ditch, neither because i have a specific injunction to do so, but because He loved me, and that love made me alive to love others with the same love.

if i'm doing the things in Leviticus 19 because of John 13, it doesn't lessen Leviticus 4, and it doesn't make me 'under Deuteronomy 22' just because He wrote Luke 14 in my heart. it means the same LORD who gave these things through Moses to a stony-hearted people spoke the same righteousness to a people whose hearts He renewed.

((that's how i see it anyhow)) seeing it this way none of Leviticus is my jailer yet all of it is my teacher.
 
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