Catholicism vs Protestantism
- Thread starter Roughsoul1991
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Well, as I read this sentence
"For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge."
The phrase
"but not according to knowledge"
modifies the zeal that they have of God, but not the fact that they have a zeal of God.
It might be easier to see in a simpler sentence
"Mary has a car, but it is not red."
The phrase
"but it is not red."
modifies or gives us information about the car. It does not change the fact that Mary has a car.
Does that make sense?
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I neither believe nor disbelieve CCC 841. I think a good case can be made either that Christians and Muslims do or do not worship the same God. it depends on things like the exact definition of worship in that use, and the philosophical question of when two people are talking about the same thing or a different thing.
"For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge."
The phrase
"but not according to knowledge"
modifies the zeal that they have of God, but not the fact that they have a zeal of God.
It might be easier to see in a simpler sentence
"Mary has a car, but it is not red."
The phrase
"but it is not red."
modifies or gives us information about the car. It does not change the fact that Mary has a car.
Does that make sense?
********************
I neither believe nor disbelieve CCC 841. I think a good case can be made either that Christians and Muslims do or do not worship the same God. it depends on things like the exact definition of worship in that use, and the philosophical question of when two people are talking about the same thing or a different thing.
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I don't think this is philosophical question
It is simple
Sampel of philosophical question
Quote
Nothing philosophical here.
Yes or No question.
Seem to me you try to do what ever you can to defend catholic to the point to avoid the answer that prove catholic Lie.
Philosophical question, not easy to answer
Is islam believe Jesus as God? It is simple the answer is not.
If islam not believe Jesus as God, than why catholic Lie and say: together with us adore the one and merciful God, mankind'judge oN the last day.
If us in that sentence mean Christian, than catholic is lie, because muslim not believe Jesus as God.
If us in that sentence mean catholic, than catholic is Lie, because catholic say they belilieve Jesus as God.
It is simple
Sampel of philosophical question
Quote
- Will racism cease to exist?
- Why is beauty associated with morality?
- Why do we respect the dead more than the living?
- Does God have supreme power?
- Will the world be a better place if caste and religion cease to exist?
- End quote
Nothing philosophical here.
Yes or No question.
Seem to me you try to do what ever you can to defend catholic to the point to avoid the answer that prove catholic Lie.
Philosophical question, not easy to answer
Is islam believe Jesus as God? It is simple the answer is not.
If islam not believe Jesus as God, than why catholic Lie and say: together with us adore the one and merciful God, mankind'judge oN the last day.
If us in that sentence mean Christian, than catholic is lie, because muslim not believe Jesus as God.
If us in that sentence mean catholic, than catholic is Lie, because catholic say they belilieve Jesus as God.
Well, hang on there.
"For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge."
It doesn't say that they have a zeal of God, but not the true God.
That the translator believes that Paul is talking about the true God is clear from God being capitalized.
It does say that the zeal that they have is not according to knowledge.
The passage goes on to explain this lack of knowledge
Romans 10: 3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
They are ignorant ("not according to knowledge") of God's righteousness, and try to establish their own righteousness.
Nothing in verse 3 says that the zeal of God that verse 2 says they have is not a zeal of the true God.
"For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge."
It doesn't say that they have a zeal of God, but not the true God.
That the translator believes that Paul is talking about the true God is clear from God being capitalized.
It does say that the zeal that they have is not according to knowledge.
The passage goes on to explain this lack of knowledge
Romans 10: 3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
They are ignorant ("not according to knowledge") of God's righteousness, and try to establish their own righteousness.
Nothing in verse 3 says that the zeal of God that verse 2 says they have is not a zeal of the true God.
Well first off, CCC 841 doesn't say that Muslims worship Jesus.
If your response is that Jesus is God, then I say that yes, Jesus is God. However, Jesus is not all of who God is.
Thus it is possible to worship God and not accept Jesus, especially if one is blinded or not really informed about Jesus.
Of course, one won't be worshipping in spirit and in truth, one won't be a true worshipper!
Also, in case this becomes important, the phrase "not accept" does not mean exactly the same thing as "reject".
As for defining worship, there are many different ways
https://www.wordnik.com/words/worship
CCC 841 is probably using something like
"To participate in religious rites of worship."
Or
"The outward recognition of merit; reverence; respect; deference."
If one says that the Muslims are showing that worship to the wrong god, I say that's one way to look at it. The other way is that Muslims are showing that worship to the right God, along with a lot of misinformation (not according to knowledge)!
It is possible to worship something that you do not know
John 4: 22 You worship that which you don't know.
If your response is that Jesus is God, then I say that yes, Jesus is God. However, Jesus is not all of who God is.
Thus it is possible to worship God and not accept Jesus, especially if one is blinded or not really informed about Jesus.
Of course, one won't be worshipping in spirit and in truth, one won't be a true worshipper!
Also, in case this becomes important, the phrase "not accept" does not mean exactly the same thing as "reject".
As for defining worship, there are many different ways
https://www.wordnik.com/words/worship
CCC 841 is probably using something like
"To participate in religious rites of worship."
Or
"The outward recognition of merit; reverence; respect; deference."
If one says that the Muslims are showing that worship to the wrong god, I say that's one way to look at it. The other way is that Muslims are showing that worship to the right God, along with a lot of misinformation (not according to knowledge)!
It is possible to worship something that you do not know
John 4: 22 You worship that which you don't know.
Yes, those are all great philosophical questions.
Another philosophical question is, "Can you step into the same river twice?"
Heraclitus said no.
"No man ever steps in the same river twice"
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heraclitus
So he would probably say that no two people worship the same God, ever!
As to when two things are different, or when one thing changes into something else,
"One of the most perplexing is the problem of the consistency of change: how can one thing have incompatible properties and yet remain the same thing?"
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/change/
No, Muslims do not adore Jesus as a God.
However, that is not exactly same question that we have been discussing.
You are welcome to have that impression, but that is not how I see it.
I believe the logic you are using assumes that Jesus is all of who God is.
I had asked you about this before, but I don't remember what your answer was, or if you answered.
Please refresh my memory!
Another philosophical question is, "Can you step into the same river twice?"
Heraclitus said no.
"No man ever steps in the same river twice"
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heraclitus
So he would probably say that no two people worship the same God, ever!
As to when two things are different, or when one thing changes into something else,
"One of the most perplexing is the problem of the consistency of change: how can one thing have incompatible properties and yet remain the same thing?"
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/change/
No, Muslims do not adore Jesus as a God.
However, that is not exactly same question that we have been discussing.
You are welcome to have that impression, but that is not how I see it.
I believe the logic you are using assumes that Jesus is all of who God is.
I had asked you about this before, but I don't remember what your answer was, or if you answered.
Please refresh my memory!
If you are asking if I believe that the true God rejects Jesus as God, then no, I do not believe that.
No the Jews that Paul is talking about at the beginning of Romans chapter 10 do not believe that Jesus is God.
That is part of their lack of knowledge.
But, this lack of knowledge does not prevent them from having a zeal of God. And the translator of the King James, which is what I believe we were discussing, believes that to be a zeal of the true God, hence the capitalization.
No the Jews that Paul is talking about at the beginning of Romans chapter 10 do not believe that Jesus is God.
That is part of their lack of knowledge.
But, this lack of knowledge does not prevent them from having a zeal of God. And the translator of the King James, which is what I believe we were discussing, believes that to be a zeal of the true God, hence the capitalization.
