"Not by works" - false!

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
P

Pulie

Active member
#1,761
May 26, 2020
216
94
28
#1,761
Judges1318 said:
The testimony of the Spirit instilling faith in the hearts of men so they may trust in Jesus and be saved is certainly an example of prevenient grace.

"6 ...it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.
10 Whoever believes in the Son of God accepts this testimony. Whoever does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because they have not believed the testimony God has given about his Son." - 1 John 5:6,10

Man can't and won't reach out to God. God comes to man through the voice of the Spirit. All it takes is a visitation of the Spirit to enable man to see the truth about the gospel. As we see above, some accept his testimony, while others (most) reject his testimony, in effect calling God a liar. The ability to overcome our depravity and accept the gospel comes through a visitation of the Spirit.


Here's the Bible definition of faith:

"1Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen." - Hebrews 11:1

Through a visitation of the Spirit, an unregenerate person is able to see that which he can't see. Faith is the proof, or evidence that what he can't see is actually true, and so he can make a decision either way as to whether he wants to accept what he can now see, or reject it and go back to his blinded, depraved mind.


No, I would leave it as 'faith'.
Faith (the ability to see that which you can't see really is true) would certainly be an example of God's prevenient grace.


Aside: "prevenient grace" is not found in the Bible IMO, though proponents would site John 1:9, Titus 2:11, John 12:32, Romans 2:4, 1 Tim. 2:4
Click to expand...
I don't have time to look those up right now, but here is God's prevenient grace in the Bible:

"This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him. 4God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will." - Hebrews 2:3-4

Some responded to the testimony of the Spirit, while some (most) did not. God proved to them the reality of the gospel, yet some like the Pharisees turned away in willful unbelief, blaspheming the Spirit (calling him a lying working of miracles) and being eternally condemned as a result. Like all men, because God testified to them, they are without excuse.


The testimony of signs and wonders of the Spirit is a profound example of prevenient grace--'divine grace given before a man chooses Christ'. This grace is given so men can make an informed decision to accept Jesus as Messiah. The danger being, if a man rejects the evidence and proof of Jesus' Sonship, they are rightfully and justly condemned because they no longer have any excuse to not believe. God is just. It is important that those who he condemns be condemned justly and fairly. That justice does not exist in Calvinism.[/QUOTE]

Thank you so much.
 
J

Judges1318

Banned
#1,763
Nov 16, 2019
3,441
860
113
#1,763
Fastfredy0 said:
If you want to continue using the word FAITH as you do, then use the accepted term in its place: PREVENIENT GRACE. PREVENIENT GRACE is the message you are trying to convey and PREVENIENT GRACE has a common meaning to those you are trying to communicate with.
Click to expand...
Faith being bestowed through the testimony of the Holy Spirit would indeed be an example previent grace. But I'm not really interested in that specific line of discussion (at least for right now).

How about I just use the definition the Bible gives for faith, and from a more translated version as opposed to an interpretative version:

"1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. " - Hebrews 11:1

Faith is the evidence and substance of the hope of Christ. It's the essence of what you can't see verify as real with your eyes. This is what God gives everyone through the testimony of the Holy Spirit. The difference is, some keep that faith and place their trust in the truth it reveals. Others reject that faith that has shown them the gospel is real and cast it away in unbelief. But both were shown that the gospel really is true.
 
J

Judges1318

Banned
#1,764
Nov 16, 2019
3,441
860
113
#1,764
mailmandan said:
How ironic. I don’t need a lecture from you about godly traits and I have not forgotten your meltdown. You continuously attack the OSAS doctrine and those who support it, so enough with playing the victim. I was not responding to you in the first place.
Click to expand...
Spanking babies in Christ and calling them out on their childish, ungodly behavior is not a meltdown.
 
J

Judges1318

Banned
#1,766
Nov 16, 2019
3,441
860
113
#1,766
EleventhHour said:
Exactly and now he has a little entourage encouraging him.

Sad.
Click to expand...
And it's killing you. We can see that clearly.

You know in your heart this about you being right, not defending the truth like a good little soldier for Christ as you insist you are doing. You've made this personal. You are acting like a mere human. Humans by nature have to hate and abuse those who do not agree with them and who challenge their dearly held beliefs. You should be overcoming that with the Holy Spirit you are sure is inside of you. Especially since you are sure that is Christ's responsibility to do for you so that you won't be guilty of working to earn your salvation.
 
J

Judges1318

Banned
#1,767
Nov 16, 2019
3,441
860
113
#1,767
Fastfredy0 said:
e: I believe I pointed out that when I replace the word FAITH in some verses with your definition ... the meaning does not make sense.
Example: Romans 3:26 It was to demonstrate His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the One who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
Click to expand...
Let's try it using the Bible's definition of 'faith':

I'll just use the version you used:

"It was to demonstrate His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the One who justifies those who have 'the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen' in Jesus." Romans 3:26

Looks good to me.
It's what I've been saying.
 
L

LovedByMyFather

New member
#1,772
May 17, 2020
27
20
3
#1,772
John 13:35 King James Version (KJV)
35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#1,773
#1,773
Judges1318 said:
...as long as you agree with me.

That's what you have shown.
Click to expand...
Well as you said we have all these pages which proves you wrong

I get along with many I disagree with. It’s the self few I do not get along with. And as I said nuts not a doctrinal issue
 
J

Judges1318

Banned
#1,774
Nov 16, 2019
3,441
860
113
#1,774
Fastfredy0 said:
Well, his insistence on redefining FAITH contrary to the dictionary has me leaning more and more to your point of view.
That, plus a significant proportion of people posting with a view similar to yours has me 'on guard'.

Hopefully, this is not an unfair "pile on Judges" thing going on.
Click to expand...
Honest question: Do you embrace the Church's doctrine of tithing?
Please be honest.
I want to show you something very profound that may help you to not instantly reject what I'm saying.
 
E

EleventhHour

Guest
#1,775
#1,775
Judges1318 said:
And it's killing you. We can see that clearly.

You know in your heart this about you being right, not defending the truth like a good little soldier for Christ as you insist you are doing. You've made this personal. You are acting like a mere human. Humans by nature have to hate and abuse those who do not agree with them and who challenge their dearly held beliefs. You should be overcoming that with the Holy Spirit you are sure is inside of you. Especially since you are sure that is Christ's responsibility to do for you so that you won't be guilty of working to earn your salvation.
Click to expand...
Agree it grieves my spirit.

I cannot for the life of me understand people putting themselves in harms way after being warned.

You are so wrong on me wanting to be right... all the abuse I have taken, I would have stopped a long time ago.

Do you notice I rarely discuss any other aspect of doctrine.... only OSAS on BDF.

Why....because I have known the damage...... God has put me through much to understand how important it is to stand up to false teachers.

And for the record I have no hatred towards you at all... not even one speck... but I detest what you preach.

Anyone who has knelt at the foot of THE CROSS (metaphor) and understood the magnitude of Christ's sacrifice to give us sinners Eternal, SECURE salvation would feel the same.

You preach religion... I hate religion... nothing but misery and sorrow.
 
J

Judges1318

Banned
#1,776
Nov 16, 2019
3,441
860
113
#1,776
eternally-gratefull said:
Well as you said we have all these pages which proves you wrong

I get along with many I disagree with. It’s the self few I do not get along with. And as I said nuts not a doctrinal issue
Click to expand...
You've been raging to suppress my opinion.
You refuse to let me post in this forum.
And you attack my character in your efforts to do that.
You have not been godly at all towards me.
This isn't just about doctrine. You've taken this to a personal level.....and all out of pride.
 
J

Judges1318

Banned
#1,778
Nov 16, 2019
3,441
860
113
#1,778
EleventhHour said:
Agree it grieves my spirit.

I cannot for the life of me understand people putting themselves in harms way after being warned.

You are so wrong on me wanting to be right... all the abuse I have taken, I would have stopped a long time ago.

Do you notice I rarely discuss any other aspect of doctrine.... only OSAS on BDF.

Why....because I have known the damage...... God has put me through much to understand how important it is to stand up to false teachers.

And for the record I have no hatred towards you at all... not even one speck... but I detest what you preach.

Anyone who has knelt at the foot of THE CROSS (metaphor) and understood the magnitude of Christ's sacrifice to give us sinners Eternal, SECURE salvation would feel the same.

You preach religion... I hate religion... nothing but misery and sorrow.
Click to expand...
Like I say, you simply do not understand what I've been saying all this time.
You can't hear me because you're nursing a personal grudge against me.

...besides the fact that you don't seem to be able to hear anything outside of your little doctrinal box anyway. The personal vendetta you have just makes that worse.
 
E

EleventhHour

Guest
#1,779
#1,779
Judges1318 said:
Like I say, you simply do not understand what I've been saying all this time.
You can't hear me because you're nursing a personal grudge against me.
Click to expand...
I have no personal grudge.
You are ascribing a sin to me that does not exist do you realize this?
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#1,780
#1,780
Judges1318 said:
You've been raging to suppress my opinion.
Click to expand...
How can you live with yourself

I could care less about your opinion. That’s why 90 % of the time I ignore your rants
You refuse to let me post in this forum.
Click to expand...
Am I a mod? Can I do this?

And you attack my character in your efforts to do that.
Click to expand...
I point out your sins and I counter your arguments in what you believe when new people are here

As I have said before if you do not like it. Too bad

You have not been godly at all towards me.
This isn't just about doctrine. You've taken this to a personal level.....and all out of pride.
Click to expand...
As long as you continue to attack with no proof continue to twist what others say and continue to bear false witness

I will continue to call you out for your ungodly behavior

As you said earlier. That’s not attacking

Practice what you preach
 
You must log in or register to reply here.