"Not by works" - false!

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jackrosie

jackrosie

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Judges1318 said:
Romans 2:12-16 does explain how one is judged in the absence of exposure to the law and the gospel.
In their case, how they respond to what they have been exposed to--the law of conscience and nature--shows if they have humbled themselves by faith to the higher power they know exists, but whom they do not know by name.

Just as we who have been exposed to the law and the gospel show if we have humbled ourselves by faith to the Father and the Son by whether or not the law is written on our hearts.

God holds a person accountable to what they have received, not what they haven't received, and judges accordingly.
Click to expand...

What do you mean God holds a person accountable to what they have received?
 
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Judges1318

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Fastfredy0 said:
That's what I want you to show: verses explaining how those who have not heard the gospel are saved.
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@Micaiah-imla brought some excellent scripture to the table from 1 Peter 4 about Christ going by the Spirit to visit the souls of the dead so they may live:

"6For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to human standards in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit." - 1 Peter 4:6

Which I think dovetails with what he was saying in chapter 3:

"19After being made alive, d he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built." - 1 Peter 3:19-20


.
 
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Judges1318

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jackrosie said:
What do you mean God holds a person accountable to what they have received?
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God won't expect any more from a person than what is appropriate with the level of revelation he has received. His judgment of a person is based on what was revealed to them, not on what was not revealed to them.

In the case of the person who had no knowledge of the gospel and the law, obviously, he is not going to be condemned for not believing in Jesus Christ. He knows nothing about Jesus and the cross. His judgment will be limited to the response expected from someone who only had the law of conscience and nature to reveal a holy God to him.
 
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Judges1318

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@Fastfredy0 , I'll be visiting your Ephesians 2 question as I articulate an answer and as time permits. The key lies in the fact that the law was a temporary wall that separated the gentiles from the blessings of the gospel. But as it says, that barrier and dividing wall are torn down in Christ.
 
Fastfredy0

Fastfredy0

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Judges1318 said:
Romans 2:12-16 does explain how one is judged in the absence of exposure to the law and the gospel.
In their case, how they respond to what they have been exposed to--the law of conscience and nature--shows if they have humbled themselves by faith to the higher power they know exists, but whom they do not know by name.

Just as we who have been exposed to the law and the gospel show if we have humbled ourselves by faith to the Father and the Son by whether or not the law is written on our hearts.

God holds a person accountable to what they have received, not what they haven't received, and judges accordingly.
Click to expand...
So, in your opinion, if someone has not heard the gospel and is to be saved Romans 2:12-16 says they have to:
1) Believe in a higher power

1) Is this the formula?


2) What is the content of their belief in the higher power in order to be saved?


3) Where does one find this content of question #2 in scripture? Is this all they have to do?
 
Fastfredy0

Fastfredy0

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Judges1318 said:
@Fastfredy0 , I'll be visiting your Ephesians 2 question as I articulate an answer and as time permits. The key lies in the fact that the law was a temporary wall that separated the gentiles from the blessings of the gospel. But as it says, that barrier and dividing wall are torn down in Christ.
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I don't agree with your answers (doesn't mean I am right or wrong), but I give you props for trying.
 
B

Bereshith

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Fastfredy0 said:
So, in your opinion, if someone has not heard the gospel and is to be saved Romans 2:12-16 says they have to:
1) Believe in a higher power

1) Is this the formula?


2) What is the content of their belief in the higher power in order to be saved?


3) Where does one find this content of question #2 in scripture? Is this all they have to do?
Click to expand...
Re your comment. Consider the Thief on the Cross. Jesus told him he would be in Paradise based on his "remember me when you come into your Kingdom" statement.

Raises some interesting questions.
 
jackrosie

jackrosie

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Judges1318 said:
God won't expect any more from a person than what is appropriate with the level of revelation he has received. His judgment of a person is based on what was revealed to them, not on what was not revealed to them.


Revelation he has received....God will help a believer to act on that revelation,he will be their helper....he revealed something to me....I said..Lord I can’t do that..I need your help...which he gave.

He leads me into what he revealed to me...is that what you mean?
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eternally-gratefull

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Bereshith said:
Re your comment. Consider the Thief on the Cross. Jesus told him he would be in Paradise based on his "remember me when you come into your Kingdom" statement.

Raises some interesting questions.
Click to expand...
Or how about the tax collector. Who called out for Gods mercy
 
posthuman

posthuman

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Judges1318 said:
In their case, how they respond to what they have been exposed to--the law of conscience and nature--shows if they have humbled themselves by faith to the higher power they know exists, but whom they do not know by name.
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Modification of behavior can also simply be out of fear of punishment. It's not necessarily out of a good conscious toward God.
 
Magenta

Magenta

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posthuman said:
Modification of behavior can also simply be out of fear of punishment. It's not necessarily out of a good conscious toward God.
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I have heard it said that it is sin itself that punishes us, due to our own conscious awareness of our wrongdoing. In that respect, refraining from sinning in order to maintain peace of mind and a healthy state of consciousness toward God surely cannot be faulted?
 
Fastfredy0

Fastfredy0

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Bereshith said:
Re your comment. Consider the Thief on the Cross. Jesus told him he would be in Paradise based on his "remember me when you come into your Kingdom" statement.
Raises some interesting questions.
Click to expand...
Agreed. It raises some interesting questions. Probably questions without answer. Hermeneutics 101 ... one should not depend of implicit verses for doctrine.
I am not sure what the questions are. Everyone is saved by FAITH. Obviously, this guy doesn't believe or disbelieve in the resurrection which is now part of the content of Faith for salvation today IMO.
But, yeah ...lots of theology built one this guy on the cross ... probably much too much (subjective comment).
 
posthuman

posthuman

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Magenta said:
I have heard it said that it is sin itself that punishes us, due to our own conscious awareness of our wrongdoing. In that respect, refraining from sinning in order to maintain peace of mind and a healthy state of consciousness toward God surely cannot be faulted?
Click to expand...
But what about when people desire to sin in their heart, and only forbear because they are afraid of being caught?
I'm thinking, 'they honor Me with their lips but inside..'

I think this is an example of why Christ said hating someone in your heart has equivalence with carrying out murder.
 
Magenta

Magenta

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posthuman said:
But what about when people desire to sin in their heart, and only forbear because they are afraid of being caught?
I'm thinking, 'they honor Me with their lips but inside..'

I think this is an example of why Christ said hating someone in your heart has equivalence with carrying out murder.
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I understand what you are saying :) Still, isn't not committing murder because you are afraid you may be caught better than actually doing it?:unsure:Jesus did raise the bar :) Having that much resentment toward someone enough to put you in a murderous rage needs looking at :geek:
 
J

Judges1318

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jackrosie said:
Revelation he has received....God will help a believer to act on that revelation,he will be their helper....he revealed something to me....I said..Lord I can’t do that..I need your help...which he gave.

He leads me into what he revealed to me...is that what you mean?
Click to expand...
No, not really.
That's a different subject.
I'm talking about the revelation of right and wrong.

The person who knows nothing of the law of Moses and the gospel receives revelation about right and wrong from conscience and the nature of things. For example, it's virtually understood in all people groups throughout the history of mankind that you are not to murder or steal.
 
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