The absurdity and heresy of Preterism

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acts5_29

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The Bible teaches they are of the 12 tribes of Israel, as Romans 9:6-8 clearly identifies Israel.
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People read way too much into the 144,000, on all sides. All Revelation 7 is saying is that you will find both saved Jews and Gentiles in Heaven (and probably more Gentiles). The first half, John describes the saved Jews he saw there. The second half describes the saved Gentiles, numbering more than he could count. These discussions happen all the time in the NT: Are Jews saved? Are Gentiles saved without obeying the Jewish customs? It's both.

And before we (the board) get too technical about it, yes, I know that the 144,000 are not in Heaven at the time of Revelation 7. That happens later. Like I said, people can read too much into it.
 
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acts5_29

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A bit of irony I find in this, is that Dispensationalists tend to use this passage, i.e. the 144,000's presence on earth at this time of Revelation 7 while the Great Multitude is in Heaven, as ammo supporting the Pre-Trib POV.

I will give this much:

1) It does look like, while the 144,000 are supposed to be the "first fruits," so to say, it is in fact the Multitude who comes to know Christ first. It appears likely the 144,000 came to Christ after the Multitude did. Which works out just fine in the Preterist view.

2) If you go Dispensationalist, in order to be consistent in your beilef system you have to believe that SAVED Jews are NOT Raptured. Saved Gentiles a pre-trib raptured; saved Jews are not. A partial rapture, I find a bit of an absurd belief. But...someone out there may very well believe that. And I would have to allow that as no more wrong than any of the other thousand beliefs people hold about Revelation.
 
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Truth7t7

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PlainWord said:
The Flood was not a 'tribulation.' It was a mass death event on a global scale never to be seen again.

The "Great Tribulation" of Mat 24 was a mass suffering event and it was limited to a certain nation, people and race.

tribulation
[ trib-yuh-ley-shuhn ]

noun
grievous trouble; severe trial or suffering.
an instance of this; an affliction, trouble, etc.

The context of Mat 24 was Judea, the people were to flee Judea. The companion passage of Luke 21 makes it clear the time to flee was when Jerusalem was surrounded by armies. History tells us, they were Roman armies.

16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Notice the world doesn't end here, as time continues. No nation will ever endure such hardship again as 93% of the Jewish population were destroyed, 600,000 of them died due to famine, disease and by the sword of their own countrymen before the Romans killed anyone. The Roman siege was so bad, the suffering over the top. No country before or after has ever come close to the suffering those Jews trapped inside Jerusalem endured. Notice it was only those in Judea told to flee. Nobody else was warned or in danger. Please see Luke 19:41-44 for further context.

Does this help?
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(Full Preterism) is a heretical false doctrine.

Matt 24:21-22 below is speaking to a "Future" (World Audience)

"There Should No Flesh Be Saved"

1. Your claim this time of great tribulation is localized to a specific geography and ethnic people (Jews) is "False"

2. World War II in the words (No, Nor Ever Shall Be) silences the Preterism claim of 67-70AD fulfillment of the great tribulation, with 70 million casualties worldwide, 6 million being ethnic Jews slaughtered.

3. The "Future" great tribulation will be shortened for the (Elect's Sake) the world church is the elect of God.

Matthew 24:21-22KJV
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

4. The verses below surround specifically the literal "Future" coming of Jesus Christ in the heavens, immediately after a future great tribulation

"They Shall See The Son Of Man Coming"

5. You falsely claim to know the day and hour of the coming of Jesus Christ, as you falsely claim this (Was Fulfilled) in 67-70AD, as scripture teaches

(Of That Day Or Hour Knoweth No Man)

Matthew 24:29-37KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
 
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TheDivineWatermark

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acts5_29 said:
A bit of irony I find in this, is that Dispensationalists tend to use this passage, i.e. the 144,000's presence on earth at this time of Revelation 7 while the Great Multitude is in Heaven, as ammo supporting the Pre-Trib POV.
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That ^ is not the "pre-trib" viewpoint (on those).

"The 144,000" [singular nation] are set in contradistinction to the "a great multitude... of all the nations" [plural nationS] in that chapter. But they are both [both groups] present on the earth at the same time, that is, during the trib years (which is FOLLOWING "our Rapture").

IOW, the "a great multitude... of all the nations" is NOT to be confused/conflated with "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY". That is not the identification of the "a great multitude... of all the nations" who will be "coming out of THE GREAT tribulation" (i.e. coming out of the SECOND HALF of the 7-yr tribulation period).

Again, you seem to be conflating certain things.

Anyway, what you've presented ^ there as the "pre-trib" view [or, as "supporting pre-trib POV"], is NOT the "pre-trib" viewpoint on these found in Rev7. ;)
 
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Truth7t7

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PlainWord said:
Absolutely. You don't?
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It appears you run and hide from the direct question with a false claim, as I believe the items listed below literally happened.

Once Again

Do you believe the plagues and actions of Moses/Aaron in Egypt actually happened as seen in the book of Exodus?

First born dead, red Sea parting, water to blood, sores upon Egyptians, flies, frogs, Etc?
 
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Truth7t7

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TheDivineWatermark said:
That ^ is not the "pre-trib" viewpoint (on those).

"The 144,000" [singular nation] are set in contradistinction to the "a great multitude... of all the nations" [plural nationS] in that chapter. But they are both [both groups] present on the earth at the same time, that is, during the trib years (which is FOLLOWING "our Rapture").

IOW, the "a great multitude... of all the nations" is NOT to be confused/conflated with "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY". That is not the identification of the "a great multitude... of all the nations" who will be "coming out of THE GREAT tribulation" (i.e. coming out of the SECOND HALF of the 7-yr tribulation period).

Again, you seem to be conflating certain things.

Anyway, what you've presented ^ there as the "pre-trib" view [or, as "supporting pre-trib POV"], is NOT the "pre-trib" viewpoint on these found in Rev7. ;)
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1. There is no pre-trib rapture/catching up found in the scripture, no place, a false teaching of man.

2. There is no 7 year tribulation found in scripture, it will be 3.5 years, and start when the future Man of Sin is revealed in Jerusalem.

3. The Nations seen below clothed in white robes are the righteous saved, and they are in the Lord's spiritual realm, not in the physical realm of this earth.

Revelation 7:9-12KJV
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
 
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acts5_29

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TheDivineWatermark said:
That ^ is not the "pre-trib" viewpoint (on those).

"The 144,000" [singular nation] are set in contradistinction to the "a great multitude... of all the nations" [plural nationS] in that chapter. But they are both [both groups] present on the earth at the same time, ;)
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Then that would be inconsistent with the Bible.

Revelation 7:9 is pretty clear that this Great Multitude is in Heaven. They are standing before the Throne, in the presence of the Lamb, in white robes.

Whereas the 144,000 in verses 1-8 are being sealed by the four angels, very similar to Passover. Since they are being sealed against a soon-to-be Wrath--and one which harms the land, the sea, and the trees--they must be on earth.
 
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PlainWord

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Truth7t7 said:
It appears you run and hide from the direct question with a false claim, as I believe the items listed below literally happened.

Once Again

Do you believe the plagues and actions of Moses/Aaron in Egypt actually happened as seen in the book of Exodus?

First born dead, red Sea parting, water to blood, sores upon Egyptians, flies, frogs, Etc?
Click to expand...
I said I did. I guess you struggle with basic reading comprehension from your peers as well as the Bible.
 
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PlainWord

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Truth7t7 said:
(Full Preterism) is a heretical false doctrine.

Matt 24:21-22 below is speaking to a "Future" (World Audience)

"There Should No Flesh Be Saved"

1. Your claim this time of great tribulation is localized to a specific geography and ethnic people (Jews) is "False"

2. World War II in the words (No, Nor Ever Shall Be) silences the Preterism claim of 67-70AD fulfillment of the great tribulation, with 70 million casualties worldwide, 6 million being ethnic Jews slaughtered.

3. The "Future" great tribulation will be shortened for the (Elect's Sake) the world church is the elect of God.

Matthew 24:21-22KJV
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

4. The verses below surround specifically the literal "Future" coming of Jesus Christ in the heavens, immediately after a future great tribulation

"They Shall See The Son Of Man Coming"

5. You falsely claim to know the day and hour of the coming of Jesus Christ, as you falsely claim this (Was Fulfilled) in 67-70AD, as scripture teaches

(Of That Day Or Hour Knoweth No Man)

Matthew 24:29-37KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
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Again with the lack of basic reading comprehension. Look, I can't go back and teach you English. Look up the definition of "tribulation." Then look back at the 3 olivet passages to see if you can locate where this great trouble was going to take place. There will be a quiz after.
 
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Runningman

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PlainWord said:
The Flood was not a 'tribulation.' It was a mass death event on a global scale never to be seen again.

The "Great Tribulation" of Mat 24 was a mass suffering event and it was limited to a certain nation, people and race.

tribulation
[ trib-yuh-ley-shuhn ]

noun
grievous trouble; severe trial or suffering.
an instance of this; an affliction, trouble, etc.

The context of Mat 24 was Judea, the people were to flee Judea. The companion passage of Luke 21 makes it clear the time to flee was when Jerusalem was surrounded by armies. History tells us, they were Roman armies.

16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Notice the world doesn't end here, as time continues. No nation will ever endure such hardship again as 93% of the Jewish population were destroyed, 600,000 of them died due to famine, disease and by the sword of their own countrymen before the Romans killed anyone. The Roman siege was so bad, the suffering over the top. No country before or after has ever come close to the suffering those Jews trapped inside Jerusalem endured. Notice it was only those in Judea told to flee. Nobody else was warned or in danger. Please see Luke 19:41-44 for further context.

Does this help?
Click to expand...
Then the great tribulation was not God's judgement on Earth. If that is what you are saying then I agree, though we still disagree that the great tribulation has already happened.

The second coming of Christ will be like the great flood per Matthew 24. Jesus has not returned yet. It's still a future event.
 
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TheDivineWatermark

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TDW:
That ^ is not the "pre-trib" viewpoint (on those).

"The 144,000" [singular nation] are set in contradistinction to the "a great multitude... of all the nations" [plural nationS] in that chapter. But they are both [both groups] present on the earth at the same time, ;)
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acts5_29 said:
Then that would be inconsistent with the Bible.
Revelation 7:9 is pretty clear that this Great Multitude is in Heaven. They are standing before the Throne, in the presence of the Lamb, in white robes.
Whereas the 144,000 in verses 1-8 are being sealed by the four angels, very similar to Passover. Since they are being sealed against a soon-to-be Wrath--and one which harms the land, the sea, and the trees--they must be on earth.
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Consider the following few points (to be brief) [and to be clear, both of these distinct groups are "SAVED" persons, existing on the earth in the trib years]:

--Rev7:15-17 parallels Isaiah 49:10 (in an "earthly Millennial Kingdom" context, quoted at bottom)

--Rev7:15 says they will "serve Him day AND NIGHT in His temple" whereas Rev21:22,25 says (of the NJ) "And I saw NO TEMPLE therein"... [and]..."for there was NO NIGHT there"

--Rev7:17 has the word "FEED" which is the same Greek word in Rev19:15b (said of "the nations") translated there as "[HE] SHALL SHEPHERD" them/the nations ("future tense" to that point in the chronology, even), which Greek word is "G4165 - poimainó / poimanei "

--Rev7:14 says they are "coming out of THE GREAT tribulation" which refers specifically to "the SECOND HALF" of the trib years (well-after the pre-trib rapture has taken place!!!), so these are folks who will be coming to faith FOLLOWING "our Rapture" and IN/DURING the trib yrs. Thus, they will exist on the earth during the same time-period (generally speaking) as the 144,000, who will also be existing on the earth (and coming to faith IN/DURING) the trib years, FOLLOWING "our Rapture". (Neither the 144,000 NOR the "a great multitude... of all the nations" are identified as "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY," having already been "raptured" well-before this point [see also Matt24:14 which WILL BE BEING PREACHED *in/during* the future TRIB YRS (FOLLOWING "our Rapture"!)... not presently! (Rev7:9,14 is one passage showing the RESULTS of said "preaching/message" Matt24:14[26:13])]


[quoting Isaiah 49:10 (and part of its context) from top point]


8 This is what the LORD says:
“In the time of favor I will answer You,
and in the day of salvation I will help You;c
I will keep You and appoint You
to be a covenant for the people,
to restore the land,
to apportion its desolate inheritances,
9 to say to the prisoners, ‘Come out,’
and to those in darkness, ‘Show yourselves.’
They will feed along the pathways,
and find pasture on every barren hill.
10 They will not hunger or thirst,
nor will scorching heat or sun beat down on them.d
For He who has compassion on them will guide them
and lead them beside springs of water.
11 I will turn all My mountains into roads,
and My highways will be raised up.
12 Behold, they will come from far away,
from the north and from the west,e
and from the land of Aswan.f”
13 Shout for joy, O heavens; rejoice, O earth;
break forth in song, O mountains!
For the LORD has comforted His people,
and He will have compassion on His afflicted ones.
14 But Zion said, “The LORD has forsaken me;
the Lord has forgotten me!”
15 “Can a woman forget her nursing child,
or lack compassion for the son of her womb?
Even if she could forget,
I will not forget you!
16 Behold, I have inscribed you on the palms of My hands;
your walls are ever before Me.
17 Your buildersg hasten back;
your destroyers and wreckers depart from you.
18 Lift up your eyes and look around.
They all gather together; they come to you.
As surely as I live,” declares the LORD,
“you will wear them all as jewelry
and put them on like a bride.
19 For your ruined and desolate places
and your ravaged land
will now indeed be too small for your people,
and those who devoured you will be far away.
20 Yet the children of your bereavement
will say in your hearing,
‘This place is too small for us;
make room for us to live here.’
21 Then you will say in your heart,
‘Who has begotten these for me?
I was bereaved and barren;
I was exiled and rejected.
So who has reared them?
Look, I was left all alone,
so where did they come from?’”
22 This is what the Lord GOD says:
“Behold, I will lift up My hand to the nations,
and raise My banner to the peoples.
They will bring your sons in their armsh
and carry your daughters on their shoulders.
23 Kings will be your foster fathers,
and their queens your nursing mothers.
They will bow to you facedown
and lick the dust at your feet.
Then you will know that I am the LORD;
those who hope in Me will never be put to shame.”
24 Can the plunder be snatched from the mighty,
or the captives of a tyranti be delivered?
25 Indeed, this is what the LORD says:
“Even the captives of the mighty will be taken away,
and the plunder of the tyrant will be retrieved;
I will contend with those who contend with you,
and I will save your children.
26 I will make your oppressors eat their own flesh;
they will be drunk on their own blood, as with wine.
Then all mankind will know that I, the LORD,
am your Savior and your Redeemer,
the Mighty One of Jacob.”
 
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Truth7t7

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PlainWord said:
Again with the lack of basic reading comprehension. Look, I can't go back and teach you English. Look up the definition of "tribulation." Then look back at the 3 olivet passages to see if you can locate where this great trouble was going to take place. There will be a quiz after.
Click to expand...
Your false (Preterist) teachings have been (Silences) by the presented truth below, as you run hide from a direct response to God's words of truth.

(Full Preterism) is a heretical false doctrine.

Matt 24:21-22 below is speaking to a "Future" (World Audience)

"There Should No Flesh Be Saved"

1. Your claim this time of great tribulation is localized to a specific geography and ethnic people (Jews) is "False"

2. World War II in the words (No, Nor Ever Shall Be) silences the Preterism claim of 67-70AD fulfillment of the great tribulation, with 70 million casualties worldwide, 6 million being ethnic Jews slaughtered.

3. The "Future" great tribulation will be shortened for the (Elect's Sake) the world church is the elect of God.

Matthew 24:21-22KJV
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

4. The verses below surround specifically the literal "Future" coming of Jesus Christ in the heavens, immediately after a future great tribulation

"They Shall See The Son Of Man Coming"

5. You falsely claim to know the day and hour of the coming of Jesus Christ, as you falsely claim this (Was Fulfilled) in 67-70AD, as scripture teaches

(Of That Day Or Hour Knoweth No Man)

Matthew 24:29-37KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
 
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TheDivineWatermark

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TheDivineWatermark said:
--Rev7:17 has the word "FEED" which is the same Greek word in Rev19:15b (said of "the nations") translated there as "[HE] SHALL SHEPHERD" them/the nations ("future tense" to that point in the chronology, even), which Greek word is "G4165 - poimainó / poimanei "
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[meant to add to this point...]

... (both passages ^ showing the "destination point" of the "nations" [those coming to faith, of course] who will exist in the MK age, that is, who will ENTER the earthly MK age [many passages... but to be brief, Matt8:11 and its parallel, for one... "And I say to you that many will come from east and west, and will recline [G347] with Abraham and Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom OF THE heavenS" i.e. the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom, commencing upon His "RETURN" there, that is, to the earth ])
 
Ahwatukee

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Runningman said:
The pre-trib doctrine has to be taught to someone for them to find it. Mainly because pre-tribulation rapture is never explicitly stated, but it can be inferred, suggested, or even projected using scripture.
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No one ever taught me. When the Lord first called me, I was immediately drawn to end-time events and have been studying it to this very day. I live in the book of Revelation. I know what I am talking about and what I'm contending for. I have reiterated over and over more times than I can count these truths, but people will not budge from the false teachings that they have adopted. But instead they utilize already exiting false apologetics or make up new ones. No matter which way anyone slices it, they cannot get past the underlying principle, that because Christ already took upon himself God's wrath that every believer deserves, satisfying it completely, then the wrath of God no longer rests upon the believer and therefore cannot go through the time of God's coming wrath. It is a legal precedent. And since God's wrath must be poured out right up to Christ's return to the earth to end the age, then the church cannot and will not enter that time of wrath and must be removed prior to the first seal being opened which initiates God's wrath.


C |-------------------------------------- CHURCH IN HEAVEN AT THE WEDDING FEAST ---------------------------------|
H
U
R
C
H |<----------------------------------------------- G O D 'S W R A T H ------------------------------------------------------->| -- CHRIST RETURNS
|<-------------------------------------S E A L S / T R U M P E T S / B O W L S------------------------------------------->| -- TO END THE AGE
G |<---------------------------------------------- S E V E N Y E A R S ------------------------------------------------------->| -- SATAN BOUND IN ABYSS
A
T
H
E
R
E
D



The Bible does explicitly state a post-trib rapture though, in Matthew 24:29-31, making it the standard interpretation of the rapture outside of churches in Western nations. Matthew 24 is the gold standard of eschatology, in my view.
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Matthew 24:29-31 is the event of the Lord's return to the earth to end the age and is not the gathering of the church, which are two separate events. In fact, the church/bride will be with the Lord following Him our of heaven to the earth riding on white horses:

"For the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His bride (church) has made herself ready. She was given clothing of fine linen, bright and pure.”

"The armies of heaven, dressed in fine linen, white and pure, follow Him on white horses."

"They (beast and ten kings) will wage war against the Lamb (as He's descending to earth), but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.”

The called, chosen and faithful followers, will be those who will have previously been resurrected and caught up.

"And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of his saints,"

Not that I am trying to ignite yet another rapture debate. Let's just settle on having a disagreement if pre-trib is your cup of tea.
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No, but you are teaching false teachings, claiming that the church is going to go through God's wrath and thereby denying that Christ took upon himself God's wrath on our behalf, satisfying it completely. By your teaching, the appearing of the Lord to gather His church would be no blessed hope at all. And there would be no reason for believers to comfort each other with the promise of the Lord's appearing and that because you have us going through the same wrath as the wicked. Yet God does not punish the righteous with the wicked, but you have Him doing so by your belief.

My point is that simply picking up the Bible and starting to read it, the average person won't find a pre-trib rapture. This pre-trib doctrine didn't appear until the 1820s; even pre-tribbers agree it is a relatively new interpretation of the rapture.
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That the pre-trib teaching didn't appear until the 1820's is ridiculous, because I came to my conclusion reading the word of God. Therefore, this teaching appeared in the word of God way before 1820. All that you are doing is repeating a well-known false teaching with Scofield as the culprit who invented the pretribulation gathering of the church. Well, I've never read anything by Scofield and so I didn't get it from Him. Until you and others understand the underlying principle, you will not understand why the church must and will be gathered prior to God's wrath being poured out. As it is, you have a poor outlook on what Christ accomplished on our behalf. By your belief, you're basically saying 'yes' and 'no' in the same breath.

Make no mistake, this is not a minor issue.


God's wrath satisfied
========================================================
Surely He took on our infirmities and carried our sorrows;
yet we considered Him stricken by God, struck down and afflicted.
But He was pierced for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon Him, and by His stripes we are healed.
 
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Truth7t7

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Runningman said:
Then the great tribulation was not God's judgement on Earth. If that is what you are saying then I agree, though we still disagree that the great tribulation has already happened.

The second coming of Christ will be like the great flood per Matthew 24. Jesus has not returned yet. It's still a future event.
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The individual falsely claimed the second coming was Fulfilled in 67-70AD, and he quoted a (Taticus) in this string a few days back, referencing lightning and clouds, no joke!

Yes they reference the unsaved Jew and Roman citizen (Flavius Josephus) and other historical writings as if they were scripture, to support their false claims, and they want you to believe once upon a time in the jolly land of (Preterism) sad!

Of course the great tribulation and second coming are literal future and unfulfilled events, they are only fooling themselves, bending and twisting God's truth.
 
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Runningman

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Ahwatukee said:
No one ever taught me. When the Lord first called me, I was immediately drawn to end-time events and have been studying it to this very day. I live in the book of Revelation. I know what I am talking about and what I'm contending for. I have reiterated over and over more times than I can count these truths, but people will not budge from the false teachings that they have adopted. But instead they utilize already exiting false apologetics or make up new ones. No matter which way anyone slices it, they cannot get past the underlying principle, that because Christ already took upon himself God's wrath that every believer deserves, satisfying it completely, then the wrath of God no longer rests upon the believer and therefore cannot go through the time of God's coming wrath. It is a legal precedent. And since God's wrath must be poured out right up to Christ's return to the earth to end the age, then the church cannot and will not enter that time of wrath and must be removed prior to the first seal being opened which initiates God's wrath.


C |-------------------------------------- CHURCH IN HEAVEN AT THE WEDDING FEAST ---------------------------------|
H
U
R
C
H |<----------------------------------------------- G O D 'S W R A T H ------------------------------------------------------->| -- CHRIST RETURNS
|<-------------------------------------S E A L S / T R U M P E T S / B O W L S------------------------------------------->| -- TO END THE AGE
G |<---------------------------------------------- S E V E N Y E A R S ------------------------------------------------------->| -- SATAN BOUND IN ABYSS
A
T
H
E
R
E
D





Matthew 24:29-31 is the event of the Lord's return to the earth to end the age and is not the gathering of the church, which are two separate events. In fact, the church/bride will be with the Lord following Him our of heaven to the earth riding on white horses:

"For the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His bride (church) has made herself ready. She was given clothing of fine linen, bright and pure.”

"The armies of heaven, dressed in fine linen, white and pure, follow Him on white horses."

"They (beast and ten kings) will wage war against the Lamb (as He's descending to earth), but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.”

The called, chosen and faithful followers, will be those who will have previously been resurrected and caught up.

"And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of his saints,"



No, but you are teaching false teachings, claiming that the church is going to go through God's wrath and thereby denying that Christ took upon himself God's wrath on our behalf, satisfying it completely. By your teaching, the appearing of the Lord to gather His church would be no blessed hope at all. And there would be no reason for believers to comfort each other with the promise of the Lord's appearing and that because you have us going through the same wrath as the wicked. Yet God does not punish the righteous with the wicked, but you have Him doing so by your belief.



That the pre-trib teaching didn't appear until the 1820's is ridiculous, because I came to my conclusion reading the word of God. Therefore, this teaching appeared in the word of God way before 1820. All that you are doing is repeating a well-known false teaching with Scofield as the culprit who invented the pretribulation gathering of the church. Well, I've never read anything by Scofield and so I didn't get it from Him. Until you and others understand the underlying principle, you will not understand why the church must and will be gathered prior to God's wrath being poured out. As it is, you have a poor outlook on what Christ accomplished on our behalf. By your belief, you're basically saying 'yes' and 'no' in the same breath.

Make no mistake, this is not a minor issue.


God's wrath satisfied
========================================================
Surely He took on our infirmities and carried our sorrows;
yet we considered Him stricken by God, struck down and afflicted.
But He was pierced for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon Him, and by His stripes we are healed.
Click to expand...
Ok. I still don't agree with your rendering of scripture, but I do believe, and agree with you, on the part about being saved through faith in Christ. Let's settle on that.
 
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Truth7t7

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TheDivineWatermark said:
[meant to add to this point...]

... (both passages ^ showing the "destination point" of the "nations" [those coming to faith, of course] who will exist in the MK age, that is, who will ENTER the earthly MK age [many passages... but to be brief, Matt8:11 and its parallel, for one... "And I say to you that many will come from east and west, and will recline [G347] with Abraham and Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom OF THE heavenS" i.e. the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom, commencing upon His "RETURN" there, that is, to the earth ])
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There will be no Millennial Kingdom on this earth, a false teaching of man.

Jesus Christ returns immediately after the tribulation in fire and final judgement, as the resurrection of all and catching up of the believer takes place, Matthew 24:29-31, John 5:28-29

The Lord dissolves the existing heavens and earth by his fire, as the wicked are judged to the lake of fire, as the eternal New Heavens, Earth, And Jerusalem are revealed to the righteous, all in the twinkling of an eye, judgement is complete, eternity begins 2 Peter 3:10-13, Revelation 20:11-15, Revelation 21-1-5
 
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TheDivineWatermark

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PlainWord said:
[re: the Thessalonians] These futurists actually have stolen this comfort and taken it for themselves as if Paul was writing to them.
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Paul was given the task (by God) of disclosing "doctrine" applicable to/for/about "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (which, again, is never called "THE temple" [with the 'definite article'] by Paul... just "temple"... in our present existence on the earth). ;)

So, where he speaks of "comfort," say in 2 Thessalonians 2:13-17 (the Greek word used 2x here), he is also addressing the entire "Church which is His body" (the "ONE BODY") and not merely the Thessalonian believers (back then).

The problem enters when people do not believe that Paul was tasked with such a thing, and do not believe "the word of the Lord" was given to him to disclose it (record it).

Oh and in the Olivet the disciples weren't going to get beaten and hauled into synagogues and before kings and the HS wasn't going to give them any words to say, that also was stolen by the futurists for themselves.
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Saying such a thing ^ shows that you've not grasped the "pre-trib" viewpoint, for this is NOT what is being said... It seems you've forgotten the point about the "proleptic 'you'" I've mentioned, regarding that text (the Olivet Discourse, Matthew context)... the "proleptic 'you'" here NOT BEING "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (all those saved "in this present age [singular]" [see Eph1:20-23 WHEN (as to its existence)]), but [INSTEAD] all those TO WHOM the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom was promised.


I'll try to come back here in a bit, to address the "author" you had mentioned, and make a brief comment on what I read of his work when you mentioned it the other day. BBL... (I got stuff to look after, ATM =D )
 
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TheDivineWatermark

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@PlainWord ,

[adding to my post]

Keeping in mind the wording in 2Th2:1 "the parousias of OUR Lord Jesus Christ, and OUR episynagoges UNTO HIM" (which I believe both parts of this verse to be speaking of "our Rapture" [noun-]event, which Paul makes reference to some NEARLY TEN TIMES in these two epistles--its [overall] Subject being "an eschatological salvation")...

...consider the following:


[(PlainWord recommended) re: M.R.'s article / book, quoting from article]

"But Paul could not stop with the end of the Mosaic Age. He must link Christ’s bodily resurrection to that of believers in the distant future. That resurrection will occur in Christ’s parousia, or “in his presence” (1 Corinthians 15:23, YLT).

"Paul argues for the resurrection of the body as follows. The resurrection of Christ was the central last-days event that established the parousia of Christ. The parousia began in Jesus’ generation and is the period during which he reigns. This fulfills passages like Psalm 110:1. Paul says, quoting this Psalm, “For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet” (1 Corinthians 15:25). Christ will subdue his enemies during the Messianic Age. Paul has moved from the “last days” of the Mosaic Age into the Messianic Age.

"For Paul, the “all enemies” must include death, the monster who has reigned over men because of Adam’s sin.8 Of necessity, the subjugation of all Christ’s enemies will involve a victory over the chiefest of enemies. But that will not occur until the end of Christ’s parousia after the Messianic Age has run its course. Then God will raise the dead on the last day (cp. John 11:24)."

[end quoting from article; bold and underline mine]


Notice that he says "ON the last day," rather than "IN/AT the last day," as though it consists merely of "a singular 24-hr day" (nope!) and then fails to acknowledge the TWO DISTINCT ITEMS that will be "raise[d] up AT/IN THE LAST DAY" according to John 6:39 [THINGS (His throne and governmental rule, etc)] and John 6:40 [PEOPLE (saints/believers)]! (Jesus is not merely repeating Himself, here! ;) )

Secondly, where he says (I underlined it ^ ), "The parousia began in Jesus' generation and is the period during which He reigns"... well, I wonder how he can say this, because 1Cor15:23-24 is supplying a SEQUENCE (with SEQUENCE words, especially like "THEN [eita] the end" which "THEN [eita]" is a SEQUENCE WORD ONLY with NO time element attached)...

...and then when you consider the point in time when ALL "saints" will have experienced "resurrection" (the Subject here), THAT is [all of THAT by the point in time of His Second Coming to the earth FOR the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom, i.e. Rev19/20:4,6 point in the chronology, and which is at the time when the FIRST of TWO "PUNISH" words of Isaiah 24:21-22[23] happens, with a TIME-PERIOD that FOLLOWS before the SECOND of the TWO "PUNISH" words is carried out], when the final "saints" to be "resurrected" have done so [note: this is not "the dead"/"the resurrection of DAMNATION/JUDGMENT" which is at the SECOND of the TWO "PUNISH" words that, recall, FOLLOW the TIME-PERIOD that intervenes these TWO "PUNISH" words!], ...

...so (for the "saints) at/BY the Rev19/20:4,6 point in the chronology [i.e. it is not "PAST" yet!], then FOLLOWING that point SEQUENTIALLY [not 'immediately'] is the "THEN [eita] the end"... FOR HE MUST REIGN, TILL... and it is this "REIGN, TILL" that takes place in that INTERVENING "TIME-PERIOD" BETWEEN the TWO "PUNISH" words of Isaiah 24:21-22[23]!!



This is where he's made his mis-step (at least one of them)... by his shuffling around of the wording... Really all he's doing is "mis-applying" certain terms, and coming up with basically the same "outline" [as our view] but which cuts off the "intervening time-period" [that FOLLOWS His "RETURN" Rev19] (and pertaining to the "THEN [SEQUENTIALLY]" rather than "THEN [IMMEDIATELY]" [improperly interpreted] of 1Cor15:24).
 
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PlainWord

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Truth7t7 said:
Your false (Preterist) teachings have been (Silences) by the presented truth below, as you run hide from a direct response to God's words of truth.

(Full Preterism) is a heretical false doctrine.

Matt 24:21-22 below is speaking to a "Future" (World Audience)

"There Should No Flesh Be Saved"

1. Your claim this time of great tribulation is localized to a specific geography and ethnic people (Jews) is "False"

2. World War II in the words (No, Nor Ever Shall Be) silences the Preterism claim of 67-70AD fulfillment of the great tribulation, with 70 million casualties worldwide, 6 million being ethnic Jews slaughtered.

3. The "Future" great tribulation will be shortened for the (Elect's Sake) the world church is the elect of God.

Matthew 24:21-22KJV
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

4. The verses below surround specifically the literal "Future" coming of Jesus Christ in the heavens, immediately after a future great tribulation

"They Shall See The Son Of Man Coming"

5. You falsely claim to know the day and hour of the coming of Jesus Christ, as you falsely claim this (Was Fulfilled) in 67-70AD, as scripture teaches

(Of That Day Or Hour Knoweth No Man)

Matthew 24:29-37KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
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See, if we add a lot of bold text and call the other person names, then we get to win the argument:). Jesus was discussing the destruction of the temple and the events leading up to it. He clear identifies the location as being in and around Jerusalem. Never does He jump ahead thousands of years to our future. Never does He say, "Don't worry boys, the rest of this stuff I'm about to tell you is going to happen wayyyy out into the future, so don't worry about it." Sorry. You and your futurist buddies are so far out in left field that you don't realize the game ended 1900 years ago.

You know what's ironic? The Jews missed the first coming and the futurists missed the second coming. You are no better off then they were. I kinda think maybe this was the plan; to show the Church it can't be any more uppity than the Jews of the first century, waiting on a Messiah that already came.

The "elect" in this context are those whose lives were spared the great tribulation, approx 98,000 out of 1.2 million. If the tribulation (siege) were allowed to continue much longer no Jewish flesh inside the city would have survived.
 
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