The absurdity and heresy of Preterism

Good for you. I wanted to add, my brother believes in a future world-wide great tribulation like all the futurists. 35 years ago, he quit his job and moved his family of 6 to northern Maine. He has a gun in every room and a stock pile of wood and food to survive the inevitable. They barely get by. His kids have grown and moved but he and his wife still live up there in the middle of nowhere, all because of a false belief system. This stuff used to drive me crazy too when I believed like this. Now I enjoy life to the fullest. I'm prudent because we live in crazy times, so I'm heavily armed and have enough food to last awhile but I'm not worried about being asked to take a chip in my head or hand or any of that other nonsense.

"1 And after six days, Jesus takes with Him Peter, and James, and John his brother, and brings them up into a high mountain by themselves. 2 And He was transfigured before them, and His face shone like the sun, and His clothes became white as the light.
[...]
9 And as they were descending from the mountain, Jesus instructed them, saying, “Tell to no one the vision, until the Son of Man is risen out from the dead.”



"The Transfiguration" is a picture of His Second Coming glory. They were given a snapshot to "see [G3708 - horao]" [i.e. "the vision [G3705 - horama]"]. (And yes, they were really up on a high mountain, at that time.)

Do note, just because I lean toward preterist/idealist does not mean I don't believe in a future world-wide great tribulation. Tribulation is what this life is all about. The world will end one day. Even way back in the days of Noah, while that was not the end of the world, that was still the end of THEIR world.

I tend to believe we have been living in the end of the Millennium, and we are now in the days of Satan being unleashed and the war of Gog and Magog. Unfortunately, Revelation gives very few details about how that future will unfold. That is for us to discover.

Both are correct. If you recall from Luke 21 Christians were told to leave when they saw armies surround Jerusalem. Okay, that's Jerusalem.

The Thessalonians who were in Thessalonika didn't have to worry about the Roman soldiers surrounding them unless they went to Jerusalem for the Passover, as many Jewish believing Christians did. If you read Acts 17, you will see that the Church of the Thessalonians was under severe persecution from other unbelieving Jews.

These Jews would for sure return to Jerusalem for the major feasts like Passover. The Romans allowed them in but wouldn't let them leave to put a strain on their supplies. Jerusalem's population swelled to 5X the normal. Thus God gathered all the Tares into one place to be burned.

Thus the Thessalonians who remained in Thessalonika got their rest from persecution when the persecuting Jews left and did not return. These same persecuting Jews died in the great tribulation of the siege.
According to Josephus and Eusebius, all Christians escaped over the mountains to Pella and not one died.

The 70 AD destruction of Israel, Jerusalem and its temple is the climax of the Bible. Almost all of Revelation deals with it. It is the end of the Jewish people as a nation...

The context of Acts 3 is they just received the Holy Spirit and were about to go out and evangelize the known world, AKA, the Roman Empire, a task Paul later declared they accomplished. They knew that they were living in the last days of their age, and their country. They knew the temple was soon going to fall and that Israel would cease being God's Chosen Exclusive people. This point is found repeatedly such as in Heb 1:1-2. It was also in all their sacred writings. They knew that their days as a nation were coming to an end. Thus Acts 3 was directed at the Jews. If you recall, they were first commanded to preach only to the Jews (Mat 10:5). Recall also that Jesus said He didn't come to bring peace but a sword. He came to divide Israel into believing and unbelieving. He turned that nation upside down making fanatics out of His believers and enraging those who refused to acknowledge Him. Christ turned father against son, brother against brother, etc, or at least faith in Him did.

Salvation is from the Jews (John 4:22) but it has been opened up to everyone. I'm not Jewish either. Romans 10 discusses how we (the Church) and Gentile are grafted in with the believing Jews. Before 70 AD, God was known in the world as "the God of the Jews." Now He is known as the Creator and God of everyone. We are equal partakers of all His blessings, once reserved for just Israel.

You speak of "striving against the inevitable, vainly grasping for the return of Christ." The Rapture is a relatively new concept in the church introduced in the 1830s by Darby and didn't start to gain popularity until the 1920s. Since then it has become a main tenant in most Christian circles, especially in the USA and to countries evangelized by the USA. Dozens of Christian leaders have predicted Christs' return and dated it, each to have been proven wrong. The "Rapture" is escapism. For 2,000 years Christians have been dying and then going to heaven. The Rapture teaches that they are body-less souls or spirits waiting in limbo for an imminent return of Christ that is 2,000 years and counting. In their view, Peter and Paul and the early martyrs are still waiting for a body. What good is being in heaven if you can sense any of it? Preterists teach that when one dies, they are immediately taken to heaven as a spiritual complete being. You will recognize family and friends and be able to talk to them, see them and hang out with them. You will be able to eat food and drink even if the body doesn't need it. You will see Jesus. The Rapturist view makes that impossible. The only appealing thing about the Rapture idea is that some generation gets to skip physical death which totally violates Heb 9:27 and the teachings of Paul.

Why should our generation deserve to skip death over any generation before or after ours; is it because we survived some boogieman AntiChrist? Most rapturists think they escape this as well. The preterist view has all of this in the past with nothing ahead to fear. We live our lives with joy knowing God sits on the throne and is in control. We get to live our full amount of days, not taken as a child or infant in a rapture, then when we die we are 100% with God in heaven enjoying everything. We are not 66.6% of a person not able to take it all in. You need a body with senses. The futurist denies we have one.

I think the futurist view is very depressing, waiting and waiting and wondering if and when. What joy can we have knowing the living hell our unsaved family and friends will endure after we are raptured? I'm very happy on my side of the fence and was so scared and paranoid the 50 years I was on their side.

These remarks are either naive or ignorant.

Your ignorance is revealed in "the climax of the Bible" being in 70 AD. Only someone who is thoroughly deluded would claim that we are actually living in the New Heavens and the New Earth -- WHEREIN DWELLETH RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Yes, the whole world believed that that was "the end of the Jewish people", and yet here we are with the nation-state of Israel within a small portion of Palestine thriving in the midst of all its Arab and Muslim enemies.

And at His Second Coming Christ will stand on the Mount of Olives, which will be split in two, and deliver Jerusalem from the armies of the Antichrist at the battle of Armageddon. Following that He will send His angels to gather all the Jews from around the world and bring them to Israel. There they will be confronted by their true Messiah, and one-third of all of them will be redeemed and restored.

Then the Millennial Kingdom of Christ will be established on earth, and Greater Israel will extend from the Nile to the Euphrates. Every one of the 12 tribes of Israel will be allotted their portions in that land under Christ. There will be a fourth temple built in Jerusalem under the authority of God. This will be the true temple and sanctuary, and God will dwell in the midst of Israel.

I am not in disagreement with anything the Bible says. I am in disagreement with your rendering of the Bible. I think you're seeing something that isn't really implied. There isn't a possibility that we will reach a mutual agreement on preterism because I don't think it's accurate even after closely examining the reasons for it.



What you're referring to here is called pretribulationism rapture and it did come out in the 1830s, yes. The doctrine of the rapture did not come out in the 1830s and has been a staple in Christian doctrine since the early church. The history of Christian doctrines is long and they are well-sourced and documented by third parties so this can be researched if you feel like it. And yes pretribulationsim is escapism.

Posttribulationism rapture is not escapism. Actually, it's the most pessimistic view possible to hold regarding the rapture because it involves going through a time of great suffering, persecution, even martyrdom on a global scale. It won't be confined exclusively to Jerusalem like you're saying happened. Postribulationism is the view the Bible explicitly states as well (Matthew 24), making it the truth. Jesus's ministry wasn't about escaping. He told his followers how to endure hardship, persecution, and tribulation because he knew it was coming on Earth. Actually, nothing in the Bible says we are going to always escape trials and tribulations. Yes sometimes we might, sometimes we won't.



Rapturists don't all believe in being taken away before the Anti-Christ comes. That's the ones who believe that Jesus returns before the great tribulation. The Bible says in numerous places that when Jesus returns that's when his elect will be gathered and taken up into the sky. That's indisputable.

I think the disagreement we're actually having is not a matter of what the Bible says, but who things were said to, when events happened, and if they are literal or symbolic.



Yes, I understand. I, too, have unsaved friends and family that I worried about. I have attempted to reach out to them, but I don't know what else I can do if they simply reject what I am saying. Aside from praying, I don't think there is much else to do.

I do have to say I think preterism is very depressing though. I briefly considered what it really meant and I just felt so confused and worried.

Not that I would reject preterism if the Bible explicitly stated some of the prophecies already happened. The way the Bible reads it is specific enough about things where we can sorta guess when something should happen relative to the time it was written. For example, Matthew 24 says that Jesus's return will be like the great flood. Since history has no record of the earth's population being decimated, Jesus returning, a third temple in Jerusalem being built, a man called the anti-Christ sitting in the temple with a statue that talks, a system setup so that no one can buy or sell unless they receive a mark on their right hand or forehead, then it only seems fair to conclude it hasn't happened yet. Right?

We agree that Luke 21:12-24 speaks of the events surrounding 70ad [whichever yrs one cares to consider these events, around that time period... i.e. now "past" from our perspective]

Wow, I don't know where to begin. You have almost everything wrong. The best suggestion I can give you is to follow the below link to a site that explains everything. There is a link at the top of the page that says "click here." You can then read every passage you have wrong and have it explained correctly. No this is not my site and I don't agree with 100% of the author's views, more like 90% but it's enough to hopefully let you straighten things out.

https://revelationrevolution.org/

You are certainly way ahead of the game in your belief system compared to most!!! I too agree we are living towards the end of the millennium and Satan is back on the loose deceiving nations. It seems every nation has been deceived into thinking right is wrong and wrong is not only right but preferred. I believe the church is being surrounded and that we are the camp of God's people as we are the New Jerusalem on earth. I believe our age ends when fire comes down and destroys all the wicked. Not sure I will see live long enough to witness it. But I don't think the earth ends, I think it enters a new age. I also believe that spiritual being, both good and bad influence the behavior on earth far more than I used to think.

Tribulation = suffering. It is NOT DEATH COUNT. Neither Hitler or WWII is found in the Bible. Oh yes, they suffered in the concentration camps but apparently not as bad as the Jews did in the siege of Titus. Here is a flavor from Josephus concerning the conditions inside the city during the siege, truncated for effect.

1. .. And the main reasons why they were so ready to desert were these: That now they should be freed from those miseries which they had endured in that city, and yet should not be in slavery to the Romans

2. But as for the richer sort, it proved all one to them whether they staid in the city, or attempted to get out of it; for they were equally destroyed in both cases; for every such person was put to death under this pretense, that they were going to desert, but in reality that the robbers might get what they had. The madness of the seditious did also increase together with their famine, and both those miseries were every day inflamed more and more; for there was no corn which any where appeared publicly, but the robbers came running into, and searched men's private houses; and then, if they found any, they tormented them, because they had denied they had any; and if they found none, they tormented them worse, because they supposed they had more carefully concealed it. The indication they made use of whether they had any or not was taken from the bodies of these miserable wretches; which, if they were in good case, they supposed they were in no want at all of food; but if they were wasted away, they walked off without searching any further; nor did they think it proper to kill such as these, because they saw they would very soon die of themselves for want of food. Many there were indeed who sold what they had for one measure; it was of wheat, if they were of the richer sort; but of barley, if they were poorer.

3. It was now a miserable case, and a sight that would justly bring tears into our eyes, how men stood as to their food, while the more powerful had more than enough, and the weaker were lamenting [for want of it.] But the famine was too hard for all other passions, and it is destructive to nothing so much as to modesty; for what was otherwise worthy of reverence was in this case despised; insomuch that children pulled the very morsels that their fathers were eating out of their very mouths, and what was still more to be pitied, so did the mothers do as to their infants; and when those that were most dear were perishing under their hands, they were not ashamed to take from them the very last drops that might preserve their lives: and while they ate after this manner, yet were they not concealed in so doing; but the seditious every where came upon them immediately, and snatched away from them what they had gotten from others; for when they saw any house shut up, this was to them a signal that the people within had gotten some food; whereupon they broke open the doors, and ran in, and took pieces of what they were eating almost up out of their very throats, and this by force: the old men, who held their food fast, were beaten; and if the women hid what they had within their hands, their hair was torn for so doing; nor was there any commiseration shown either to the aged or to the infants, but they lifted up children from the ground as they hung upon the morsels they had gotten, and shook them down upon the floor. But still they were more barbarously cruel to those that had prevented their coming in, and had actually swallowed down what they were going to seize upon, as if they had been unjustly defrauded of their right. They also invented terrible methods of torments to discover where any food was, and they were these to stop up the passages of the privy parts of the miserable wretches, and to drive sharp stakes up their fundaments; and a man was forced to bear what it is terrible even to hear, in order to make him confess that he had but one loaf of bread, or that he might discover a handful of barley-meal that was concealed; and this was done when these tormentors were not themselves hungry; for the thing had been less barbarous had necessity forced them to it; but this was done to keep their madness in exercise, and as making preparation of provisions for themselves for the following days.

4. These were the afflictions which the lower sort of people suffered from these tyrants' guards; but for the men that were in dignity, and withal were rich, they were carried before the tyrants themselves; some of whom were falsely accused of laying treacherous plots, and so were destroyed; others of them were charged with designs of betraying the city to the Romans; but the readiest way of all was this, to suborn somebody to affirm that they were resolved to desert to the enemy. And he who was utterly despoiled of what he had by Simon was sent back again to John, as of those who had been already plundered by Jotre, Simon got what remained; insomuch that they drank the blood of the populace to one another, and divided the dead bodies of the poor creatures between them; so that although, on account of their ambition after dominion, they contended with each other, yet did they very well agree in their wicked practices; for he that did not communicate what he got by the miseries of others to the other tyrant seemed to be too little guilty, and in one respect only; and he that did not partake of what was so communicated to him grieved at this, as at the loss of what was a valuable thing, that he had no share in such barbarity.

5. It is therefore impossible to go distinctly over every instance of these men's iniquity. I shall therefore speak my mind here at once briefly: - That neither did any other city ever suffer such miseries, nor did any age ever breed a generation more fruitful in wickedness than this was, from the beginning of the world.

Your error is in centering on "trib/wrath" and combining it with some abstract disdain for the pretrib concept.

You ignore or reframe our verses.

You are unbiblical plain and simple.

The 12 tribes match except for Dan, which is replaced by Manasseh, Joseph's son. However, this change does not disqualify the list as representing the actual 12 tribes. God has removed Dan and added Manasseh and that by His own reasoning. So far the Spirit has not revealed to me the reason for this, but I continue to watch out for it. The belief that Dan is not in the list because of idol worship is not a valid one, because all of tribes worshiped idols throughout different times in their history. For all we know, God's replacement of Dan with Manasseh has nothing to do with any error on Dan's part, but is because of some other Sovereign reason. What is important is to not disregard these 144,000 as being literal Israel just because of this change.

Both are correct. If you recall from Luke 21 Christians were told to leave when they saw armies surround Jerusalem. Okay, that's Jerusalem. The Thessalonians who were in Thessalonika didn't have to worry about the Roman soldiers surrounding them unless they went to Jerusalem for the Passover, as many Jewish believing Christians did. If you read Acts 17, you will see that the Church of the Thessalonians was under severe persecution from other unbelieving Jews. These Jews would for sure return to Jerusalem for the major feasts like Passover. The Romans allowed them in but wouldn't let them leave to put a strain on their supplies. Jerusalem's population swelled to 5X the normal. Thus God gathered all the Tares into one place to be burned.

Thus the Thessalonians who remained in Thessalonika got their rest from persecution when the persecuting Jews left and did not return. These same persecuting Jews died in the great tribulation of the siege.

According to Josephus and Eusebius, all Christians escaped over the mountains to Pella and not one died.

My holy bible

You quote the adulterer Josephus as if he was an honest man?

A Jewish traitor who turned his back on the Jewish people, as he supported the Romans in their 70AD destruction in Jerusalem

Josephus was nothing more than a propaganda machine for Rome, equalivent to Hitler's Joseph Goebbels, a favorite of the Roman rulers.

.

Christianity is about the worship of JESUS. So what if Josephus' allegiance was more to Rome than to the Jews. It's not like one was any better than the other. The early Church, too, often showed more allegiance to Rome, just as Rome often persecuted Christians less than the Jews did. People trying to kill you tends to reduce your allegiance to them, you know....

These remarks are either naive or ignorant.

Your ignorance is revealed in "the climax of the Bible" being in 70 AD. Only someone who is thoroughly deluded would claim that we are actually living in the New Heavens and the New Earth -- WHEREIN DWELLETH RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Yes, the whole world believed that that was "the end of the Jewish people", and yet here we are with the nation-state of Israel within a small portion of Palestine thriving in the midst of all its Arab and Muslim enemies.

And at His Second Coming Christ will stand on the Mount of Olives, which will be split in two, and deliver Jerusalem from the armies of the Antichrist at the battle of Armageddon. Following that He will send His angels to gather all the Jews from around the world and bring them to Israel. There they will be confronted by their true Messiah, and one-third of all of them will be redeemed and restored.

Then the Millennial Kingdom of Christ will be established on earth, and Greater Israel will extend from the Nile to the Euphrates. Every one of the 12 tribes of Israel will be allotted their portions in that land under Christ. There will be a fourth temple built in Jerusalem under the authority of God. This will be the true temple and sanctuary, and God will dwell in the midst of Israel.

DivineWord,

This is all you need to say. Luke 21:12-24 is the companion passage to Mat 24:1-28.

Then what do you do, put in a 2,000 year gap not found after v. 24?

It says, “Immediately after the distress of those days." The same days Luke was discussing.

Luke defines the Abomination of Desolation as an army.

History says it was a Roman army which left Jerusalem desolate. These accounts along with Mark 13, are of the same topic and discussion.

You have 3 recollection of the same discussion. Since none of the 3 were there, they clearly were all recounting what was told to them by Andrew, Peter, John and James.

There is no room for a massive delay.

""There is no pre-trib rapture/catching up found in the scripture, no place, a false teaching of man""

keep dreaming.
our verses,though ignored, are solid and destroy your deal.

you stand in ruins and are oblivious to it.