Not By Works

Considering they were circumcised at 8 days old I'm not sure such a choice was even offered them. Certainly they wouldn't have had the privileges that came via circumcision such as dwelling with God. Do you mean to ask if a Hebrew refused to circumcise their son at 8 days old?

God's covenant with Israel wasn't about them attaining eternal life, though, so the bigger question is whether non-Israelites during the time preceeding Christ had access to eternal life and whether a person who was hereditarily linked to Abraham had to join the community of Israel to attain salvation. That's the one I entertain is possible.

As I have mentioned to dcon "So you are saying any Jew who descended from him during the OT can use your reasoning, refuse to circumcise his kids, and his kids will be alright with God? "

That was the scenario

Yeah, along with...

Context, exegis-whatever and Hermanutic-something-a-ma-jig... and what-cha-ma-call-it like words...

The only time I see... the word "context" is when you're trying to make plain words of Scripture say something else

The truth that works complete a saved person (new works outwardly mirroring their new heart), does not contradict the truth that a person is saved because they believed in Jesus, and were born again. They are not saved because they showed fruit, but quite the opposite, they showed fruit in time because they were saved. This distinction is important.

The reason why we capitalize on grace is just like there are lawless people out there who trample grace that you warn about, there are also people out there, that nullify grace, and the Gospel, that we warn about. There are also various people who over the course of this thread denied that they have ever sinned in any regard since they accepted Christ, so since they are doing better than the apostles, maybe the apostles weren't saved.

I did not see any one of our friends fight against obedience, or deny obedience. We ONLY emphasize that obedience springs from salvation. This is in response teachings that we must "keep working to maintain salvation", and other teachings contradicting the Scriptures and denying eternal security, such as where it says that Holy Spirit was deposited into us as a GUARANTEE, or Christ promising to timely complete the good work He started in us. We are here because capitalizing on obedience combined with denying eternal security is a toxic brew, and it's not the Gospel. It's the unconditional love and grace that changes a person and causes them to want to obey and they are then shepherded with Jesus' staff (and rod if needed), unto obedience and producing fruit. But there are some people that seem to believe that God doesn't know what He's doing.

Jeremiah 32:40 And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.
As opposed to Romans 3:18 quoting Psalms about the ungodly, "There is no fear of God before their eyes."...

So there's not going to be departing, "walking away", people of the New covenant have a new heart. We get chastisements and warnings in the New testament exactly because God is working these to shepherd His people from walking away. We are sons not bastards, and we are chastised and warned so we do not end up condemned with the world (1 Cor 11:32). One who will not obey God and ignores Him to death, from these verses, did not have a new birth/new heart. So like you said, salvation and obedience do go together, the problem is when people apply an unbiblical causality between them, and then go on to deny Biblical eternal security - this is as bad as preaching security with kicking obedience out (like megachurches do), neither is the Gospel as taught by the apostles. Cheers

The refusal to circumcise would have resulted in being put out of the camp and suffered consequences in this life, but the larger question remains of whether eternal life would be something accessible to them.

So did God desire the salvation of the Assyrians, Moabites, Canaanites, and other groups that were not included within His exclusive covenant with Israel and could they find eternal life apart from the law? I say yes to both of those and they inform the answer to whether the offspring of an apostate from Israel could be saved if they served God dutifully apart from the law.

The answer for both your paragraphs lies in Ephesians 2:11-12

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

During the OT, in time past, the only nation that God made a covenant with was with Israel. Any Gentiles, whether Assyrians or otherwise, in order to be saved then, must be saved thru Israel.

That is what Exodus 12:48 was saying. They could not be saved in any other way. Rahab was saved because she helped Israel hide the spies, and later marry one of them, Salmon, . Ruth was saved thru marrying Boaz, and so on so forth. Had they been males, they would have to undergo circumcision too, but the point was, all Gentiles that were saved in the OT had to be saved thru the rise of Israel.

That is why the mystery revelation given to Paul was very hard for the other Jews to understand, including Peter. After Israel rejected their Messiah for the final time thru the stoning of Stephen, Paul would reveal that, but now, Gentiles can be saved thru the fall of Israel, as detailed in Romans 11

11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

While I agree all gentiles had to be saved through Israel, it is in the same way as we are all saved through Israel today. Through Israel being the bearers of the promises of Messiah.

Of course we're getting deep into the thickets on these topics and far away from the premise of this thread.

No, I am saying Israel is now an enemy with God. God has become an enemy with them, for our sakes, so that we can be saved (Romans 11:28).

We are now saved without Israel.

I'd suggest a re-read of John 4, but the way you carve apart Scripture it probably wouldn't do any good.

My answer is truthful.....and if you have even bothered to actually open your eyes genius, I have said from day one on this site that CONTEXT determines the aim of scripture....the post you directed at me before this one misses the mark by 5 light years in describing my use of and promotion of context....like I said...you are not very honest!

Work is such an AWESOME thing don't you think? Without Work we would have no Cars, Tvs, Phones, Grocery Stores, Clothes, Books, Dishes, Electronics, Government, Legislation, Laws, Peace, Prosperity, Money, Schools, Houses, Ect. .

I am thinking then you will not know UNTIL death if your faith has been genuine.

do you not listen to the Spirit? is it not leading you into all Truth?

I think that is a good question for you to ponder since you believe your works are saving you, correct?

EleventhHour said:
I am thinking then you will not know UNTIL death if your faith has been genuine.

do you not listen to the Spirit? is it not leading you into all Truth?





i was asking You because you said that you were, "thinking then you will not know UNTIL death if your faith has been genuine.

but the Spirit of God leads into ALL truth, not man, or any certain ideas that any person or group decides on. so why wouldn't the Spirit be able to let me know if my faith is genuine or not?


that is why i said, "do you not listen to the Spirit, is it not leading you into all truth?" we do not have to wait til death to know things. "seek and you shall find", "ask and it will be given unto you". ☺

You are misrepresenting my post. Not very nice. Works as in salvation, works as in keeping salvation. I believe you knew that

I think you misunderstood.... my statement was a response to yours where you stated good works are necessary for salvation ......which

means that a person who believes that will have to wait until death to know if they are saved... since how many good works save?

or ... perhaps you misunderstood? maybe i thought to say that because of what you said. possibly the Spirit even led me to say it. why assume bad things?

you seemed to be against works, but see ... Work is a Good Thing. ☺

not Even ONLY good .... but Necessary. as in the Physical -- so in the Spiritual. 🌈


John 5
17But Jesus said, “My Father has never stopped working, and this is why I keep on working.”

John 10:32,37
Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? …

I am quoting Romans 11. That is doctrine for the Body of Christ now.

Israel was still God's favorite nation during the time of John's gospel. We can benefit from reading the gospel of John, as we do from the rest of the OT, but you need to bear in mind Paul is your apostle.

John 10
37If I am not doing the works of My Father, then do not believe Me. 38But if I am doing them, even though you do not believe Me, believe the works themselves, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I am in the Father.”


this is how we can believe and know we are IN Him. we will know -- when we do His works.