LET THE WOMAN LEARN IN SILENCE - WHAT DO YOU THINK THIS MEANS?

I watched Mary Poppins again the other day and a song that I previously had not appreciated so much as a child seemed especially lyrical to me this time.

The song was a duet featuring Mary Poppins and Bert the chimney sweep's appreciation of one another's company in Jolly Holiday. Of Bert, Mary noted, "Gentlemen like you are few," and continues singing of Bert's character that'd 'never think of pressing your advantage,' which struck me as alluding to his greater muscle mass comparable to Mary's rather than any sort of superior intellect.

But, it has become all too apparent to me that there are those which, in lieu of taking such advantage and thus the reputation of being so brutish (desperately?) need (that semblance) of an "extra" advantage. The more to make the proposal most alluring, no doubt. Add in the misinterpreted restriction to defend any proper time to call anyone a 'fool', and irresistible status is secured.

If a husband lets his wife speak in church then thats fine, If he doesnt and she talks over him then thats kind of rude.
Thing is if you are married you are meant to BOTH agree on whatever is being said. Not argue about it. It makes other people listening feel awkward. couples that quarrel in public just dont edify anybody.

Paul possibly made a rule to have the men speak first just to make it simpler in church settings. whoever was the loudmouth wife who was spoiling the church gatherings mercifully is not mentioned, but maybe back then everyone knew just who it was.

Timothy, WOMEN & some history:

His mother, Eunice, was a Jew, his father a Greek/gentile (Acts 16:1).

He was schooled in OT scripture as a child (2 Tim 3:14-15).

He joined Paul on his 2nd missionary journey in Galatia around 50AD (Acts 16:3-4)

He's recorded to have been with Paul when he wrote: 2 Cor, Phil, Col, 1&2 Thes & Philemon.

He is sent by Paul with messages to a few churches (1 Cor 4:17, Phil 2:19)

He later serves as the pastor in Ephesus (1 Tim 1:1-3)

A couple of key cultural problems Paul & Timothy faced:

Under Roman rule women women's rights were limited. Women were politically oppressed & unable to speak in open forums. Paul had to be careful not to break Roman rules.

Keep in mind Christianity is in it's infancy. One of the top priorities given in (Acts 15:29) no fornication! Pagan god & idol worship were long standing practices. Outside of the household (by far) the largest employment industry for a women was prostitution.

Women of Paul's time (culturally) wore a head covering. Not so much with the ladies of the night. No head covering, gold (or fancy) hair ribbons, excessive makeup etc. were trade advertisements. And needed to be addressed inside the church.

Some OT verses on women in leadership:

Judge Deborah found in Judges chapters 4 & 5. The LORD choose her, spoke through her (the Palm of Deborah) & used her to defeat the Canaan king, freeing the Israelis. Deborah was a prophetess, poet, warrior & 4th Judge of Israel.

Although Deborah was the only Judge. She's 1 of 4 women my search found, called an OT prophet. Miriam, Huldah (2 Kgs 22:14 & 2 Chron 34:22), Noadiah (Neh 6:14). Generally we connect the word prophet to OT figures foretelling future events. In the NT the primary use of the word means, one chosen to teach, refute or admonish scriptures. I put a Vines dictionary link at the bottom. Judge Deborah, put into a leadership position by the Lord.

Some OT verses on women in leadership:
Rom 16:
1 I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant of the church which is at Cenchrea:
(NOTE: KJV translates servant of the church, AMP a deaconess, CEV a leader in the church, Darby minister of the assembly, DRA in the ministry of the church, ERV special servant, NIV a deacon, YLT ministrant of the assembly. I believe deacon would be the accurate translation).

2 That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also.
(NOTE: Paul calls her a protector of the faith & himself. And tells the whole congregation to do whatever business she instructs. Find Vines dictionary link below on succourer)

3 Greet Priscilla and Aquila my helpers in Christ Jesus:

4 Who have for my life laid down their own necks: unto whom not only I give thanks, but also all the churches of the Gentiles.

5 Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Salute my well-beloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ.
(NOTE: Not only had these women risked themselves for the gospels sake. They lead church groups in their homes).

Acts 2:
2 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.

2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.

3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.

4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
(NOTE: Jesus filled many with the promised gift of the indwelling Holy Spirit)

16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
(NOTE: Joel foretold this event)

17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
(NOTE: Peter says, Joel told us: men & WOMEN shall be filled with the Holy Spirit & THEY shall prophesy = Teach, refute & admonish scripture)

Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
(NOTE: CHRIST gave these gifts/offices to his church: apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors & teachers. I believe the order Paul puts then in is also an order of importance. Prophets being 2nd to apostle)

Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words: Prophet https://studybible.info/vines/Prophet

Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words: Succorer https://studybible.info/vines/Succorer. Post is My Opinion Only

do you know the difference between culture and how a Christian should make decisions? your English here is a little broken I'm afraid and I might not quite get what it is you are saying (maybe rephrase?) but it seems you are saying we should do things as per scripture even if it was actually only cultural

Did anyone back then have a clue about how things are in the world today? Well no, but God certainly knows and while culture should not be the decisive factor in a Christians' decision making process, one should not be weighed down by antiquity either for the sake of mistaken 'biblical purity'

For example, some will argue that women should not wear slacks or jeans because that is for men only, even though EVERYONE used to wear robes back in the day. If a man walked around like that in the US today everyone would stare. Maybe that is a trivial example, but that is the type of thing people will argue over and stumble over and it is ridiculous to most I would think

what? timespirit? does not compute for me. sorry

okay then

glad you all got that worked out

anyone visiting the singles forum here would come to that conclusion pretty quick

Thanks it works for me.

The bible encourages young widows to remarry so as to not become a burden to the family and the church. I don't believe that the bible encourages young single woman to marry, in fact, Paul does the opposite and says its best to not marry at all. A wise parent, with a young adult child still living at home, would probably give that adult child a certain measure of autonomy in regards to decision making, depending of course on the maturity of the adult child, and how a decision may impact the rest of the household.

It is true that Deborah had a temporary position of leadership. But even she indicated that it was more proper for a man to have her position. She only took it, because there were no men willing to take it.

The word, "prophecy" doesn't always mean the public type of preaching or teaching. I believe Philip's daughters did not do public preaching - but rather spoke personally in contacts with a few people at a time. And the great majority of preachers and spiritual teachers in the Bible have always been men.

I agree though, that the wearing of head covering, for women, were cultural back then. And not required to be duplicated throughout all history. The same goes as to the practice of kissing in greeting one another. Now that is seen as improper, as it means something different in modern times. The head covering had been used to show respect to their husbands, as being in authority over them. That respect, I believe is still required by God.

It's true Paul sometimes did things differently when in different cultures. But I'm sure he never allowed himself to do anything that he believed was sin. Examples of how he did differently when with Jews, for one example - was his going to make a vow in the temple. And his going to participate in Passover meals sometimes. But there are ways he behaved differently when with gentiles. And he said that gentile Christians didn't need to be circumcised.

Although I don't see God's Word as approving of women preaching or teaching publicly, in most cases except for maybe in some where as in Deborah's time - there were no men willing to do the job.

Although it looks to me like it is ok for women to answer questions that are publicly asked by a preacher, I think it is better not to do so if one is in a Christian group who sincerely believe that women shouldn't speak at all in meetings. As I said, Paul did some things differently in some groups than he allowed him to do in other groups. Also think of his directions on what to do if someone disapproved of eating meat that had been served on pagan altars. He said not to do it if in the presence of those who sincerely believed it was wrong to do that.

I would offer not so much a burden to those who honor others by giving some weight in their decisions. But like Paul said the gift of marriage is no different than remaining not married . If God does give a burning desire to procreate then that would be the gift.

Some make the gift of not being married a requirement for the priesthood. No procreation.

I agree that young mature adults should give weight to the counsel and well wishes of their parents but in the end, especially if the young adult is now on their own, that they are responsible for any decisions made. Not sure if Paul said that marriage is a gift, not sure if that is even mentioned in scripture. Marriage can be a very hard thing but the rewards are just as great.

I believe the Bible indicates that single people should marry if possible, if they feel a need for it. But that not all feel a need to marry. So I think they need to prayerfully determine God's will in the matter, and choose according to what God leads them to do in the matter.
1 Cor 7:9

9 But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn.
KJV

1 Cor 7:28

28 But and if thou marry, thou hast not sinned; and if a virgin marry, she hath not sinned. Nevertheless such shall have trouble in the flesh: but I spare you.
KJV

1 Tim 4:2-3
2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
KJV

1 Tim 5:14-15

14 I will therefore that the younger women marry, bear children, guide the house, give none occasion to the adversary to speak reproachfully.

15 For some are already turned aside after Satan.
KJV
It's true Paul spoke of some disadvantages of getting married. But he also allowed for those to get married who felt a need for it, as Adam himself felt. Those who are able to contain themselves as unmarried, have more time to devote to working for God in outside ministries.
1 Cor 7:8-9

8 I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I.

9 But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn.
KJV
"Burn" here, means "burn in lust" - overcome by sexual lusts - so as to be gullible towards participating in sexual sins.

1 Cor 7:32-34

32 But I would have you without carefulness. He that is unmarried careth for the things that belong to the Lord, how he may please the Lord:

33 But he that is married careth for the things that are of the world, how he may please his wife.

34 There is difference also between a wife and a virgin. The unmarried woman careth for the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit: but she that is married careth for the things of the world, how she may please her husband.
KJV
In other words, this just means an unmarried woman has more time to devote towards working for God. While a married woman has less time to do that, as she has other God-given duties in that case.

Regarding the need, I am in agreement with you. Paul did say that it's better to marry than to burn with passion. There is a problem though that not everyone that is contemplating marriage prayerfully determines God's will in the matter. I know that I didn't when I was younger and married for the first time. Total disaster. I remember something about burning with passion though. Paid a very heavy price too. My bad.

Yes, one needs to decide to marry or not to marry - according to what they feel a need for. I don't believe it is proper or according to the Bible for priests or preachers or Bible teachers to be forbidden to marry, though. They must make individual decisions on the matter, as is the case for anyone.
1 Tim 4:2-4

2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
KJV

Oh indeed! One needs to also rely on God's guidance as to who to marry. Not only making sure that they are true Christians, but also well compatible in other ways. As you say, it's wise to guard against giving into one's passions and rushing into marriage without taking sufficient care to make sure that it is a union that God would approve of and that would be good for both people. You're right - so many people - even Christians rush into marriage without letting God guide them enough in it. I've observed that too!

It's because of what you said. People don't want to socially ostracize themselves within their group by being contrary, being disagreeable, challenging the group, being intimidating.

If that's the route someone goes with people then they run a big risk of creating a reputation for themselves as being a dissenter causing disruptions and preaching the "doctrine of demons." as some people say over any minor disagreement.

Next thing they might be questioning that person's status as a true Christian, privately branding them a wolf in sheep's clothing.

Truth is many people just aren't ready to receive any sort of debate or constructive criticism to their deeply held beliefs, even if you come with good intentions.

It's about authority and whether your opinion on scripture interpretation is of more value than anyone elses. People generally have to find the truth for themselves through prayer, Holy Spirit guidance, and studying the scripture.

I think Deborah (the Bee) was given that position to teach us the Holy Spirit makes no difference between man and woman as prophets. Those sent as apostles.

The goal is always two working as one to create a virtuous intimate chaste virgin bride the church . Intimacy was lost in the garden when Adam refused to protect his wife from error. The glory of God departed

That time period of judges, no outward representation. It was restored from previously the woman having no part, under kings in Israel (the abomination of desolation ) When the promise of Joel was met at Pentecost it was restored . Women and men (mankind) prophets as apostles.

But like Martha and Mary. Like David and Jonathon .Moses and Aaron two working as one both kind of works are necessary .

Deborah was moved to be more like Martha. What Deborah did was taken away or accredited to God not seen . Barak like Mary who was moved to get behind Deborah. His prayer request was not taken away .

Luke 10:38-42 Now it came to pass, as they went, that he entered into a certain village: and a certain woman named Martha received him into her house. And she had a sister called Mary, which also sat at Jesus' feet, and heard his word. But Martha was cumbered about much serving, and came to him, and said, Lord, dost thou not care that my sister hath left me to serve alone? bid her therefore that she help me. And Jesus answered and said unto her, Martha, Martha, thou art careful and troubled about many things: But one thing is needful: and Mary hath chosen that good part, which shall not be taken away from her.

In that way they both sat at Jesus feet. One literally the other the unseen spiritual . All gifts of God have a two fold effect.
Two, never one.

I'm glad I found a forum where BOTH men and women both can step forward

I respect your views on this, but as you see, we differ somewhat on it. The important thing is to sincerely do one's best to interpret all scripture as correctly as is possible. There will never be perfect agreement on all spiritual things until we get to heaven. But God sees our hearts, so it's important to be wholehearted towards God's guidance - otherwise, otherwise we make ourselves ripe for punishment from God.