What does it "REALLY" mean that Jesus Christ is the Son of God?

...you typed at the end of one your post, "In The Son of God," Would it be okay with you to type, "IN GOD THE SON?"

Thank you for your sweet reply, you're very kind.

What I meant was that what REALLY matters is what God thinks.....I need to ask Him what He thinks.....not myself. lol!

Thank you for asking. It’s a long story. I’ll try to be brief.

It was impressed on me early in life by my Sunday School teacher that we should listen to Jesus, believe what he said, and obey him. This same dear man gave a lesson on loving our enemies. Whatever else he taught us, these are the two things which I took to heart and remember over 50 years later.

I am a pacifist. I’ve never believed that killing my enemies is loving my enemies. I don’t believe Jesus is pleased with Christians killing non-Christians, nor with Christians killing Christians. The Baptist Church tolerates pacifists but doesn’t preach pacifism. As the years passed I sought out historical documentation on pacifism, particularly documentation from Christian sources. It was during that effort that I learned about the Anabaptists. They were persecuted by Catholics and Protestants for their beliefs.

Anabaptists have a trinitarian line and a unitarian line. (For the unitarian line, see the Radical Reformation). I was no longer welcome in the Baptist Church after I came to believe that the God of Jesus (the Father alone) is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Those are the major issues which lead to me moving from Baptist to Anabaptist.

I decided to do some more research on this subject. I found the following article on what was going on with the Council of Chalcedon. The article clears it up for me, especially the second from last paragraph that starts out: "The Fathers at Chalcedon set themselves firmly against both of the unholesom tendencies."

The two "tendencies" were the teachings of "Nestorianism" and what "Anticochenes" taught. They were sort of the aftermath of the Arian heresy that the Council of Nicea dealt with at 326.

Btw, the various "Creeds" were developed as heretical teachings were trying in infiltrate the Church.

There are even "creeds" within the Bible itself.

I guess my problem with you Mattathias was the way you presented or explained your argument? It just was not clear enough...

…even though you posted sources that seemed to be unclear as well.

I find it very easy to understand what they were doing and why they were doing it.



Most of the creeds were developed after the Church veered away from the Jewish unitarian faith it began with. Once that was done, creeds were developed to ward off challenges to what had become established orthodoxy.



Yes. Are you aware of what happened to Jesus’ creed in the days of Justinian? And why it happened?



What is unclear about saying “Jesus was God who became man” is incompatible with and contradictory of historical orthodox trinitarianism teaching “Jesus is not a human person”?

I also want our readers to be clear that I have no problem with you. My issue is with the trinitarian clergy.



The sources I quoted were from trinitarians who hold to historical orthodox trinitarianism. I think they are crystal clear. As I commented earlier, everything they say is exactly what I was taught in the Southern Baptist Church and my wife was taught in the Roman Catholic Church (and school system).

What is unclear about saying “Jesus was God who became man” is incompatible with and contradictory of historical orthodox trinitarianism teaching “Jesus is not a human person”?

Look, it's all a matter of one's perspective.

Even you said, "Have you ever been to a church that taught, "Jesus is not a human person?" In my mind "red flags" popped up.

Then after I read the article i could see clearly what they meant by ther Council making the statement in a context I understood.

Btw, did I read that your a professor?

Is it at Biola college?

Thank you for asking. It’s a long story. I’ll try to be brief.

It was impressed on me early in life by my Sunday School teacher that we should listen to Jesus, believe what he said, and obey him. This same dear man gave a lesson on loving our enemies. Whatever else he taught us, these are the two things which I took to heart and remember over 50 years later.

I am a pacifist. I’ve never believed that killing my enemies is loving my enemies. I don’t believe Jesus is pleased with Christians killing non-Christians, nor with Christians killing Christians. The Baptist Church tolerates pacifists but doesn’t preach pacifism. As the years passed I sought out historical documentation on pacifism, particularly documentation from Christian sources. It was during that effort that I learned about the Anabaptists. They were persecuted by Catholics and Protestants for their beliefs.

Anabaptists have a trinitarian line and a unitarian line. (For the unitarian line, see the Radical Reformation). I"

Those are the major issues which lead to me moving from Baptist to Anabaptist.

Thank you for asking. It’s a long story. I’ll try to be brief.

It was impressed on me early in life by my Sunday School teacher that we should listen to Jesus, believe what he said, and obey him. This same dear man gave a lesson on loving our enemies. Whatever else he taught us, these are the two things which I took to heart and remember over 50 years later.

I am a pacifist. I’ve never believed that killing my enemies is loving my enemies. I don’t believe Jesus is pleased with Christians killing non-Christians, nor with Christians killing Christians. The Baptist Church tolerates pacifists but doesn’t preach pacifism. As the years passed I sought out historical documentation on pacifism, particularly documentation from Christian sources. It was during that effort that I learned about the Anabaptists. They were persecuted by Catholics and Protestants for their beliefs.

Anabaptists have a trinitarian line and a unitarian line. (For the unitarian line, see the Radical Reformation). I was no longer welcome in the Baptist Church after I came to believe that the God of Jesus (the Father alone) is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Those are the major issues which lead to me moving from Baptist to Anabaptist.

We all know that when one ask the question, "Who is Jesus Christ" the inevitable answer will be, "He is the Son of God." Okay, but what does that really mean? Does it mean Jesus is the Son of God just like Christians are called and identified as the sons of God? No, Christians are "adopted" sons of God, we are not "THE" Son of God in an exclusive sense as pointed out at John 3:16.

The Jews have what is known as "idioms" just like all nationalities have idioms. One of the idioms they have is "the son of" idiom. For example in the Old Testament you will read various phrases like, "Sons of prophets," refer to men belogning to a prophetic band. (1 Kings 20:35). Sons of the goldsmiths refers to a goldsmith (Nehemiah 3:31). How about "Sons of affliction are afflicted ones. (Proverbs 31:8). Sons of valor, is simply a brave man. (1 Samuel 14:52.) There are literally thousands of these idioms throughout the Bible.

The idiom also demonstrates one posse3ssing a certain nature. The idiom, "son of man" clealy exhibits the use of the word "son" to show the possession of a certain nature. This is brought out at Numbers 23:19. "God is not a man that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent." The "son of man" idiom is used throughout the Bible. Ezekiel 2:1, 3:3,4, 10:4. Job 25:6, Psalm 8:4 and in the book of Daniel. Jesus Christ often referred to Himself as the "Son of Man" and as the "Son of God."

The idiom is also present in the New Testament. Sons of peace refers to a peaceful person. (Luke 10:6). Sons of Abraham are those like him in the exercise of faith. (Galatians 3:7). Son of perdition is the lost one. This refers to two persons, Judas and the antichrist. (John 17:12) (2 Thessalonians 2:3).

At this point I want to explain how all of this applys to Jesus Christ. But first let me say I am not going to explain the terms "Firstborn" or the term "Only Begotten," (although I could) as it pertains to Jesus Christ. I am not going to get into the weeds about explaining the Trinity either.

The most important question for me is the one that Jesus ask His disciples at Matthew 16:13, "Who do people say that the Son of Man is?" Notice what Peter says at vs16, "Thou are the Christ/Messiah, the Son of the living God." How did Peter know this? Verse 17, "Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, BUT MY FATHER WHO IS IN HEAVEN."

Now, I'm going to address the argument from the "anti's" that the Jews misunderstood, or did not understand their own scriptures, or the reasons why they hated Him as it pertains to the claims of Jesus. Here's the question? Whether or not the Jews are correctly or incorrectly understood Jesus is NOT the isssue. The issue is "What was it that Jesus said that caused them to accuse Him of blasphemy resulting in His death/crucifixion?

John 5:17-18, "My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working." Vs18, "For this cause therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because (or why), He not only was breaking the Sabbath but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God." Jesus knew who He was even at an early age. Luke 2:48-49, When His mother and father were looking for Him He says at vs49, "Why is it that you were looking for Me. Did you not know that I had to be in MY FATHER'S HOUSE?"

John 8:56-59, "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad." The Jews said to Him, You are not yet fifty years old, and you have seen Abraham? vs58, Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you before Abraham was born (or sprang into exitence) I am." Vs59, "Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself, and went out of the temple."

John 10:30-37. "I and the Father are one." There is more to this verse than Jesus just saying He and the Father are one in purpose. Of course they are one in purpose otherwise there would be no reason for them to say at vs31, "The Jews took up stones AGAIN to stone Him." Jesus ask why are you stoning Me? Vs33, "The Jews answered Him, for a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out God." At verse 34-36 Jesus brings up Psalm 82:6, why?

Notice that it is Jesus who brings up the subject of God and not the subject of Him and the Father being one in purpose. At vs36 Jesus says, "do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, (Jesus was not a created being, He was sent into the world by God His Father). "You are blaspheming because I said, I AM THE SON OF GOD." So again, why did Jesus bring up Psalm 82:6?

At John 19:7 the Jews appeal to Pilate and Pilate says (vs6) "I find no guilt in Him" the Jews say, Vs7, We have a law, and by that law He ought to die because He make Himself OUT THE SON OF GOD." So again, if the Jews misunderstood Jesus why did they bring up the law at John 19:7? The law that Jesus supposedly broke is at Leviticus 24:16.

Now we come to the complete trial record at Matthew 26:57-68. I'm not going to quote all the verses but explain the main points. At vs59, "the chief priests and the whole Council kept trying to obtain FALSE testimony against Jesus, in order to PUT HIM TO DEATH." at vs63, the high priest Caiaphas says, " I adjure You (he wants Jesus to swear as to His identity), "I adjure you by the living God, that You tell us whether (Whether means in either case). So the high priest is asking the one person of Jesus Christ are You (1) the Christ/Messiah and (2) THE SON OF GOD."

In Luke's account Jesus says, "Yes, I am." Then at vs65 of Matthew 26:65, "Then the high priest tore his robes saying, "He has blasphemed! What further need do we have of witnesses? Behold, you have heard the blasphemy;" So, why would Jesus be accused of blasphemy for claiming to be the Son of God since the Jews themselves claim to be sons of God? It is not blasphemous offense to claim to be the "Messiah/Christ. In fact all through history people have come along claiming to be the Messiah even including today and none of them have been put to death for making the claim.

In summing up, please read what the Apostle John's authorial intent was at John 20:30-31 right after Thomas made his declaration to Jesus Christ that He/Jesus was his "Lord and God." "Many other signs therefore Jesus also performed in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; vs31, but these have been written that you may beleive that JESUS IS THE CHRIST, THE SON OF GOD; and that believing you may have life in his name."

So we went full circle from Jesus asking, "Who do people say that I am" and Peter saying, "Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God" to the conclusion by the Apostle John that "you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, The Son of God." To me, it's "inconceivable" that Jesus Christ is "a son of God" just like the rest of us.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

This statement of yours also "peeked" my interest. "I was no longer welcome in the Baptist Church after I came to believe that the God of Jesus (the Father alone) is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob." Since Jesus Christ is God would not He be the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob?"

Son of GOD means "GOD in the Human body" that is GOD in the Flesh. Before the coming of JESUS CHRIST, GOD never had a body but when the WORD became Flesh, GOD had a Body (John 1:1-15). JESUS is the Body of GOD. Remember GOD our HOLY FATHER is SPIRIT, and JESUS is the image of the invisible GOD, the firstborn over all creation” (Colossians 1:15). Again it is written, "And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: GOD was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of Angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory (1 Timothy 3:16)."

When we go to Heaven, the only Person we shall see setting on the Glorious Throne is "JESUS CHRIST" because HE is GOD HIMSELF. Period.

Divine Person 1 of 3 in 1 Triune God was manifest in the flesh...

There is no God besides the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Does Jesus Christ himself have a God? If he does, then his God is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

There is a human person [a Jew, the Messiah, Jesus of Nazareth] sitting at the right hand of God [Yahweh, the living God, the Father, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the one and only true God, the God of the human Jewish person seated at his right hand] in heaven.

I'm specifically referring to the angel of the Lord in the Old Testament.

Since Jesus Christ is God would not He be the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob?" I'm specifically referring to the angel of the Lord in the Old Testament.

bluto - the angel of the Lord in the Old Testament is Jesus Christ (aka God the Son).

Mattathias - the angel of the Lord in the Old Testament and in the New Testament is an angel.

The angel of the Lord cannot possibly be Jesus in the New Testament appearances. I presume that’s why you confined identification of the angel of the Lord as the Son to appearances in the Old Testament.

Hebrew phrase “malakh YHVH” can be translated “an angel of the Lord” or “the angel of the Lord”. The phrase occurs 65 times in the Old Testament. How many of these occurrences do you attribute to pre-incarnate appearances of the Son?

In other words, on how many occasions do you believe the Son is speaking in the Old Testament?

It should be obvious that "God manifest in the flesh" applies to Jesus Christ, who is (1) God, (2) God the Word, (3) the Son of God, (4) God the Son, (5) the only begotten Son of God, and (6) the second person of the triune Godhead.

What that verse starts out by saying is that God became a Man, and that He was fully God and fully Man at one and the same time. Now you can either (1) accept it by faith or (2) reject it and face the consequences.

God the Father is a Spirit, and so is God the Holy Spirit.

1. God the Father is neither the Son nor the Spirit.
2. God the Son is neither the Father nor the Spirit.
3. God the Spirit is neither the Father nor the Son.

If not, please spell it out with the actual verse, the whole verse, referencing who is who.

There's no point wasting any more time with you, since you have chosen to be deliberately obtuse.