Divine Law or Man's Law?

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Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
8,785
4,453
113
#1
In Common Sense (January 1776) Thomas Paine reminded the American colonists that in a free republic “ the law is king” and that if a day were to be set aside to celebrate the republic’s achievements then it should not be focused on a single man but on the law itself:

Which law?

But where, say some, is the King of America? I’ll tell you, friend, he reigns above, and doth not make havoc of mankind like the Royal Brute of Great Britain. Yet that we may not appear to be defective even in earthly honours, let a day be solemnly set apart for proclaiming the Charter; let it be brought forth placed on the Divine Law, the Word of God; let a crown be placed thereon, by which the world may know, that so far as we approve of monarchy, that in America the law is king. For as in absolute governments the King is law, so in free countries the law ought to be king; and there ought to be no other. But lest any ill use should afterwards arise, let the Crown at the conclusion of the ceremony be demolished, and scattered among the people whose right it is.

The Divine Law, The Word of God
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
24,790
13,145
113
#2
In Common Sense (January 1776) Thomas Paine reminded the American colonists that in a free republic “ the law is king” and that if a day were to be set aside to celebrate the republic’s achievements then it should not be focused on a single man but on the law itself
This is good in principle, but in practice it was corrupted.

1. Laws, rules, regulations, tax codes, red tape, etc. multiplied excessively under this principle, since limits were not properly set to control the proliferation of laws, especially bad laws. Today instead of a law being on one or two pages, it goes into hundreds of pages (which no reads).

2. No limits were placed on legislators to either ensure that they would not abuse their power, or remain in power beyond set limits. And lawyers were not forbidden from becoming legislators, which could have made a huge difference. Term limits of no more than 2-4 years should have been in place all along, and the same would apply to bureaucrats. The abuse of political power is quite evident worldwide.

3. Furthermore, the disposition of tax revenues was left in the hands of legislators instead of ethical administrators. who would be strictly charged to ensure that (1) taxes were kept within strict limits, (2) spending would always remain below tax revenues, and be directed towards only essential government services, (3)no state or national debt would be incurred, and (4) the gold standard would be maintained so that money could not be printed at will. Government spending has become a nightmare.

What we see in the free world today is TOTALLY IRRESPONSIBLE legislators, who invariably put their own self-interest above the national interest, and invariably spend beyond their means. Money is simply printed as though no debts will ever be paid, and tax revenues are generally spent wastefully, or directed towards projects which will benefit a few at the expense of everyone else.

The free world systems of government badly need a total overhaul, but it may already to too late to do anything about this.
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
23,460
7,180
113
#3
mmm I dunno wasn't Thomas Paine a freemason?
If he was really a Christian wouldnt he have mentioned Jesus Christ as Lord?

sounds like a lot of flowery religious speak with little substance trying to justify a republic. A republic following the Roman model, where only the wealthy elite get a say in the politics. Its really not a true democracy.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
8,785
4,453
113
#4
mmm I dunno wasn't Thomas Paine a freemason?
If he was really a Christian wouldnt he have mentioned Jesus Christ as Lord?

sounds like a lot of flowery religious speak with little substance trying to justify a republic. A republic following the Roman model, where only the wealthy elite get a say in the politics. Its really not a true democracy.
Some say he was and some say he wasn't. Doesn't matter anyway because the Free Masons weren't the same group you see today. The group became universalist and secular over time. You must also remember the majority of his readers were Christian who he was trying to persuade. Plus I only posted a paragraph out the book. Common Sense is a good book. Thomas Paine later in life after the American Revolution did fall into deism and eventually atheism. He was then shunned as a founding father.

Following his death on June 8, 1809, at Greenwich Village, New York City, only six individuals attended his funeral. When the Quakers at New Rochelle would not allow him to be buried in their cemetery, he was laid to rest under a walnut tree on his own farm.

Now we do not even know where his bones lay.

Point is, truth is truth regardless of who says it. A Constitutional Republic was built to promote a democracy where every citizen would have a voice. It prospered and progressed but the 1900s began to lose the originality of the foundation. Corruption gained a foothold. Benjamin Franklin told us the Republic would stand if we could keep it, which means we must defend it. Our citizens generations ago failed to heed the warnings. Nothing wrong with having elite class in a high moral society but if we push morals out then yes corruption will take hold of any system.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
8,785
4,453
113
#5
This is good in principle, but in practice it was corrupted.

1. Laws, rules, regulations, tax codes, red tape, etc. multiplied excessively under this principle, since limits were not properly set to control the proliferation of laws, especially bad laws. Today instead of a law being on one or two pages, it goes into hundreds of pages (which no reads).

2. No limits were placed on legislators to either ensure that they would not abuse their power, or remain in power beyond set limits. And lawyers were not forbidden from becoming legislators, which could have made a huge difference. Term limits of no more than 2-4 years should have been in place all along, and the same would apply to bureaucrats. The abuse of political power is quite evident worldwide.

3. Furthermore, the disposition of tax revenues was left in the hands of legislators instead of ethical administrators. who would be strictly charged to ensure that (1) taxes were kept within strict limits, (2) spending would always remain below tax revenues, and be directed towards only essential government services, (3)no state or national debt would be incurred, and (4) the gold standard would be maintained so that money could not be printed at will. Government spending has become a nightmare.

What we see in the free world today is TOTALLY IRRESPONSIBLE legislators, who invariably put their own self-interest above the national interest, and invariably spend beyond their means. Money is simply printed as though no debts will ever be paid, and tax revenues are generally spent wastefully, or directed towards projects which will benefit a few at the expense of everyone else.

The free world systems of government badly need a total overhaul, but it may already to too late to do anything about this.
This is good in principle, but in practice it was corrupted.
Of course. Humans were involved. Government just as civilizations progress off the ashes of past governments and civilizations. It was a rocky start after passing the Articles of Confederation. It was failing and the continental congress had to either correct or scrap it. They chose to scrap it and then came forth the Constitution which was still in debate as to why the Federalist Papers tried to persuade States to ratify the Constitution. The Anti Federalists still felt the government had too much power so out of that struggle led to the Bill of rights. Then Amendments led to corrections and more rights added. The Constitution has held for almost 250 years with the same type of Government which is extremely rare as the average constitution lasts approximately 14 years or the median lifespan is only eight years, while the mode is a minuscule one year.

George Washington warned us of the 2 party system, how nothing would get done and party allegiance would often stop congress from putting the best interest of the people first. Nor could he imagine how far morally we have fallen.

Laws, rules, regulations, tax codes, red tape, etc. multiplied excessively under this principle, since limits were not properly set to control the proliferation of laws, especially bad laws. Today instead of a law being on one or two pages, it goes into hundreds of pages (which no reads).
The limits were set in place by the separation of powers, limited government, and the morality of the people. The branches have the power to hold the others accountable. For example, congress could impeach Supreme Court justices or even disband the court. They have the power especially when they held both the house and senate.

But morality is key for good government and good laws.

In his Farewell Address in 1796, President George Washington put his finger on the importance of preserving freedom of religion within a society:


(Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness-these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens.

The mere politician, equally with the pious man, ought to respect and to cherish them. A volume could not trace all their connections with private and public felicity. Let it simply be asked, “where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation desert the oaths which are the instruments of investigation in the courts of justice?”

And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle.

It is substantially true that virtue or morality is a necessary spring of popular government. The rule indeed extends with more or less force to every species of free government. Who this is a sincere friend to it can look with indifference upon attempts to shake the foundation of the fabric?)

As society grew and progressed then of course laws had to be added but of course, many of our legislators and judges do not seek the wisdom from the perfect lawgiver and perfect judge God Almighty.

No limits were placed on legislators to either ensure that they would not abuse their power, or remain in power beyond set limits. And lawyers were not forbidden from becoming legislators, which could have made a huge difference. Term limits of no more than 2-4 years should have been in place all along, and the same would apply to bureaucrats. The abuse of political power is quite evident worldwide.


Limits were placed in the powers of other branches to hold them in place. As for set limits, the founders gave us the people the authority to amend the Constitution. Within our current congressional powers, they could put a stop to the tyrannical behavior of the judiciary branch. Idk if they know this or truly want to take on such a battle.

Furthermore, the disposition of tax revenues was left in the hands of legislators instead of ethical administrators. who would be strictly charged to ensure that (1) taxes were kept within strict limits, (2) spending would always remain below tax revenues, and be directed towards only essential government services, (3)no state or national debt would be incurred, and (4) the gold standard would be maintained so that money could not be printed at will. Government spending has become a nightmare.


It was left with Congress because Congress is the closest to the people and answers directly to the people through our votes.

It wouldn't matter if it was legislators or ethical admins. Once morality is suppressed then the government begins the cycle of collapse like any other in history.

Public and college education also has a huge role to play in this as we lost those areas to the socialist liberal movements.

The free world systems of government badly need a total overhaul,
Not a total overhaul but reformation. The foundation is good but we need to take out the trash. And drain the swamp. Is it too late to do this peacefully and democratically? Idk I pray not. We keep praying and working until all options are exhausted. God is moving even if we cannot see it.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
113
#6
Man's law must have as it's foundation God's law. The founding Fathers desired that law should be the authority of the land as opposed to mob rule. We see mob rule in our streets today.

God establishes governments to rule and leads them as He chooses. Governments that become corrupt God will set aside and bring them down to destruction. Scripture says that when the righteous are in authority the people rejoice. When the wicked rule the people hide.

For the cause of Christ
Roger