How do we reconcile unmarried "OT" sex with "NT" fornication pornea?

Should we say 'murder is not a sin, but becoming a serial killer is a sin.' No murder is a sin, and having sex before marriage is a sin. Alcoholism is not a sin. Drunkenness is the sin.

The Old Testament calls a girl losing her virginity porneia (Greek translation in use in the first century.)

Yeah I completely disagree with whomever you are quoting. Saying that premarital sex isn't a sin so easily because it isn't stated directly is absurd.

@GdaxBbb I'm very surprised in this discussion you've gone ahead and posted what amounts to a very serious statement, and I'm a bit concerned about listening or giving audience to someone who has claimed to "research it".

The enemy has researched it too bro, it doesn't make it valid.



I spent a good bit of time looking into it, reading scriptures that have to do with the subject. I may put more time into it, but since you reject Paul as "maybe" just giving his opinion and pose that it "may" not be the Lord's will directly there's a lot of an argument that cannot be made as easily. Like sexual sins being a sin against one's own body.

It's pretty clear when dealing with what Paul said where it's specifically him "I would rather" or "I have no specific command" regarding celibacy and unmarried respectively. Those two I consider opinion because it was clarified.

Or "you've heard it said thou shalt not commit adultery..." From the sermon on the mount in Matthew
5:27 "Ye have heard it said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: 28. But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart."

How can you get around that? Paul simply expounded from Jesus words. Even if you think Paul occasionally was inserting opinion Jesus himself said it quite clearly.

It didn't say a married woman here, it just says "a woman".


The reason why premarital sex isn't specifically talked about it, and this is what I feel on the subject by the way...is because it's pretty obvious. To the point where that would almost be a given.

When you look at Numbers 25:1 you see the Lord's response for idolatry. That included sexual relations and you can further read how some even took wives at another point. I'm down to go point by point, but this is a lot of effort and if you had simply said I'm almost confident it is a sin although not specifically stated I'd be more inclined to be amicable. Maybe you were just posting whomever's words for the sake of argument but it doesn't really matter the rest of what he said, the first sentences are flawed.


Why do you think Jesus furthered the command of not committing adultery? Do you think it was because people were being legalistic about it? Oh well I only went to first, second, third base...I didn't "really" sin.


Oh yeah I took this girls virginity and we lived together for years and didn't care whether the Lord was for it or against it, but we ended up not getting married and I later found out she died alone and didn't ever marry so how then did I commit adultery? Surely it's not a sin...sure scripture is pretty clear about what the covenanted construct of holy matrimony is but while I basically spit in the face of that I didn't sin...I just was on a slippery slope but held it together. Yeah we exalted our wills above the Lord but so long as neither of us ever marry we won't ever commit adultery and be sinless. Presuming of course that no children were ever created (which is another tangent).

If you are legitimately looking for how premarital sex is sin and not trying to convince people it's just "ill-advised" then perhaps I'll continue to explain each interlocking precept regarding that, but posting something from someone who is promoting that it's not sinful to have sex outside marriage is not alright with me.

By that logic you can have sex with as many people as you want, so long as you keep in mind prior laws...like it not being your aunt, step-sibling, sister, dog, corpse, etc. just make sure they aren't married and you are good to go.

Is there forgiveness and grace in spite of our mistakes? Sure is. Teaching that having sex before marriage is in the same zip code as having a beer is ridiculous though.

Bear in mind why Jesus called the Pharisees a brood of vipers. The twisted scripture in order to suit human "righteousness".

You might also look into sins that people committed whose punishment was being cut off from the people. It would have been a very real possibility that if a man took someone's virginity and neither said anything and she later married someone else (presuming she did not get pregnant) then she could be executed. So who's fault would that be? In a way you would also be committing potential murder in the same action. That seems pretty obvious to me. Thus why there are laws about it and extenuating circumstances (note: being in the field with no one around). It's not like a man didn't know this going in. Regardless of whether he "got away with it" or the law favored him...how do you think the Lord sees it. Do you see the Lord blessing too many people for just doing whatever they please?


Again, you pointed out Judah which doesn't mean the Lord was for it. The messiah didn't come through the line of Judah because of Judah but rather because of David who was a part of that line. Judah has very little to do with it.

Recall the entire story of Joseph? He ran from temptation and spent years in prison because of it, while the rest of his brothers (excluding Benjamin) were "getting off easy" it would seem.

It's not my intention to come off as condemnatory. The way is narrow for sure, but if we can't even consider what Jesus said then I am confused on how to proceed.

Adultery and pre marital sex (fornication / pornea) are completely different if you read the whole thing it’s hard to come up with arguments against it, besides the only I’ve been able to think of is the meaning of Pornea and if it means sex outside of marriage or premarital sex.

It’s fine if you don’t want to challenge your beliefs biblically. You can’t just throw out the whole practice of people having sex with prostitutes, unmarried people, legal affairs with concubines, and it not being labeled a Sin.

Sin and not gods will are completely two different things. Sin means you will face a natural punishment, not gods will means not his will you will most likely forgo the blessings he had for you, or just like Sin completely have severe consequences.

If you read even part of the article you would see majority if not all your points refuted. If you can refute them biblically sure. I really don’t understand what Jesus lineage has to do with anything David and Solomon both sinned in big ways....

And no as I said I’m not promoting pre marital sex just making the distinction of an actual Sin which would include some sort of pre-prescribed punishment / effect and just not following gods will, which is just as bad.

From the stories above as the author mentioned himself even if something is not a sin in can lead to serious sin down the line if unchecked.

And sex being one of the strongest emotions it’s wise to abstain from it with a person until married.

But let’s not try to bend biblical truth to fear monger people away from something because we presume them to be weak, or our own biases because that’s what we grew up always being taught.

The answer can’t be just because or tying things to other sins like Lust based on assumptions. Because technically then all sex is a sin because when you get in the mood you start having lusting desires towards your spouse.

So again not condoning having sex but abstaining until marriage.

It's fine anyway mods can close this thread, I'll continue to research on my own don't want this to lead to heated arguments based on opinion.

Also you're confusing adultery like I always had my whole life with pre-marital sex of unmarried people.
Adultery is extramarital sex. Voluntary sexual intercourse between a married person and a person who is not his or her spouse.

Jesus verses were specific to adultery or married people having sex outside of marriage, not having sex unmarried or pre-marital.

Anyway close Thread thanks.

I mentioned the virgin 'playing the harlot' in the LXX of Deuteronomy in use in the first century was commiting fornication/porneia/whoring around. Even if no money exchanged hands, it was whoring around.

Here is a New Testament passage which uses porneia, or porneuó, a verb form, to describe sex outside of marriage

Revelation 2:14
14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.

Moab and Midian did not like these huge crowds of Hebrews coming into the land. Balaam was hired to curse Israel, but he could not because God wanted to bless Israel. But good things would happen to Israel if they were in covenant. If they committed idolatry, bad stuff would happen to them, so Balaam taught Balak the king to entice Israel with fornication and meat offered to idols. These are weakensses of some men-- grilled meat and sex. Some of the men fell prey to the offer eat grilled meat and have sex with women in the worship of Baal of Peor.

Let us look at the story
Numbers 25
1 Now Israel remained in Acacia Grove, and the people began to commit harlotry with the women of Moab.

They were guilty of ekporneuō , giving themselves over to porneia or fornication. They were having sex outsideof marriage.

Look later in the chapter.
6 And indeed, one of the children of Israel came and presented to his brethren a Midianite woman in the sight of Moses and in the sight of all the congregation of the children of Israel, who were weeping at the door of the tabernacle of meeting. 7 Now when Phinehas the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest, saw it, he rose from among the congregation and took a javelin in his hand; 8 and he went after the man of Israel into the tent and thrust both of them through, the man of Israel, and the woman through her body. So the plague was stopped among the children of Israel. 9 And those who died in the plague were twenty-four thousand.
(NKJV)

Now, if they were both bowing to an idol of Baal of Peor, it would have been hard, probably, for Phineas to thrust them through with a single thrust. What activity were these two engaged in that the spear would go through both of them?

This was already discussed in the article I posted:


"The second passage, we have already discussed two times, namely: Deuteronomy 23:17-18. And the common error is that the mistranslated term "whore" is actually "female temple prostitute" in the original Hebrew. Obviously, "temple prostitution" is a form of idolatry and of course, God would be against such an action, because it violates the 1st of the 10 Commandments.
The third passage:

"21:9 And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire." - Leviticus 21:9
The penalty in this passage is to "daughters of priests". And what is the reason for this penalty? Because sex, money and religion are not to be mixed. Temple prostitution is prohibited, as you read in the first scripture cited in this article. Since temple prostitution is prohibited, it follows that a priest's daughter can not be a prostitute. Besides the obvious temptation to fall into wickedness for a myriad of reasons: for filthy lucre; to be like the wicked nations around them; etc."


Female temple prostitute is not the same as being a whore or promiscuous.

Regarding Pornea sex outside of marriage does not = pre marital sex of unmarried people. The context could be ANY sex outside of marriage covenant which would therefore include pre-marital sex, or it could mean sex outside of marriage of married people such as (adultery)


Notice any differences? Fornication has a very narrow, exact meaning, which directly refers to "sex outside of marriage". The term "pornea" means any type of sexual immorality(per scripture) and also can mean "idolatry". As you can see, the definitions are vastly different.
Yet, if I type "fornication" into Google web search, I can find a vast amount of Christians telling me that "fornication" means "sex before marriage". As they make this very common error of using an english dictionary and reading the Bible only in english, without consulting the orignal greek definitions. Further, basing your viewpoint on a word's definition, instead of doctrine defined, is not good either, so looking to the Old Testament to learn what a word in the New Testament means, is very beneficial. On a side note, if you look at the "word history" for the term fornication (above) you will notice that the archaic meaning of the word better represents the greek term, "pornea" (but still not perfectly) and you can see that over time, the term has changed (yet the Bible remained the same).
Is it possible for the term "pornea" to mean sex before marriage? Maybe as a cautionary tool, but not as a tool for condemnation. However, the point is to use God's exact commands in the Old Testament to know what is "sexual immorality". And if you look at Leviticus 18:7-23, you can find a very extensive list of God's sexual conduct commands, written in great detail. And you will notice, of all the sins listed, sex before marriage is not on the list. So, sex before marriage is not a sin, yet it is against God's ideal/desire.


The only argument to stand on is the definition of Pornea including pre-marital sex, and if the meaning of fornication is pre-marital sex or if it's based on the definition of "sexual immorality" and it's encompassing list.

An extensive study on the word fornication, it's context, history, usage, and meaning revision throughout history would be needed to make a proper decision.

Anyway let the mods close this thread don't think any of us have done that sort of research into a singular word.

Also this verse become completely non-sensical if fornication (pornea) means sex before marriage:

"But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, G4202 causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery."

How can your wife commit pre-marital sex? She can't which naturally lends the definition to be sexual immorality, which the list is found in the OT of what it encompasses.

Again an extensive word study is needed. Goodnight to all thanks for the responses.

I'll end with this before getting accused of condoning pre marital sex:

"So, what should we take away from this? God's desire is for sex to be in marriage and for a man to marry one time and never get a divorce."

This has quotes around it. Who are you quoting? I would like to de-bunkify your quote. There are a lot of people out there who will write authoritatively about Hebrew and Greek to justify sexually immoral lifestyles. The LGBT apologists will also argue that a Hebrew word means this or that. To the layman, it is hard to argue with what the word secretly means in Hebrew. Of course, in that case, like in the case you describe above, it just so happens that the dictionaries may disagree with the sexual libertine apologists say the Hebrew really means. This site quotes from sources that show that the word was used more broadly. https://biblehub.com/hebrew/2181.htm

Teal linguistic scholars will typically understand what a word means by its usage. That's where lexicographers supposedly get the definitions from, too, btw.

We can debunk the assertion just from looking at the context of Deuteronomy 22, especially verse 21. If a girl marries and it is found that she was not a virgin, is the only logical conclusion that she was a temple prostitute in her father's house? Playing the harlot in her father's house means she was having sex. It does not necessarily follow that she had a pagan sex temple in her father's house, just that she had been sleeping around. Usage disproves the assertions made in the paragraphs quoted above.

I think you were doing okay until the end, there. There are more passages of scripture that tell us about porneia and zanah than that passage. The girl who loses her virginity in her father's home, falsely married off as a virgin, had engaged in porneia/zanah in her father's home. A girl can lose her virginity without bowing to an idol or accepting payment by just having sex with someone who was not her husband.

Consider I Thessalonians 4
3 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:
4 That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;
5 Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God:
6 That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified.
7 For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.
8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.

Notice the language here. Porneia here may be an act of defrauding one's brother. This is a sin that effects other human beings. If you took the virginity or just engaged in intercourse with a woman who would later be another man's wife, you would defraud your brother. If porneia inhered the idea of temple prostitution why isn't that the focus of the passage, that it involves worshipping demons, etc.? This passage runs contrary to the idea that unmarried people sleeping around does no harm to other people.

There is a warning here. The only passage I know of specifically addressed to believers that warns that God will get vengence against them (punish them in another translation) is here where it warns against fornication. This should be a warning against those who would engage in premarital sex or encourage others to do so.

Let us look at this passage:
I Corinthians 7
1 Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman.
2 Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.

The topic here is a man 'touching' a woman. Notice he didn't say it is good for a man not to touch a temple prostitute, but rather a woman. Why would we think this is specifically and exclusively a warning against sleeping with temple prostitutes?

I believe in a broader definition of 'fornication.' it clearly includes a man having his father's wife in I Corinthians 5. But it also includes premarital sex in other passages, described above. And we are dealing with a tradition of usage of religious language that includes the Greek of the LXX, which was used as the Torah in the Hellenistic synagogues in Paul's day (if commentators like Edersheim are accurate).

There are those who take Christ's words to make an exception for the woman married off as a virgin who had fornicated prior in her father's house, btw.

Yeah, Hav'nt found anything close in The bible...

Aren't most of the above examples of sexual immorality? For example, which of the above can be said to be performed out of love?

I do agree that a man having multiple wives may not be sin, based on David's example and God stating to David that it was God who had given David his wives. But even this, how often would the taking of multiple wives be done with love?

OT sex is forbidden just like new testament sex is. Read Deuteronomy and Leviticus, in Gods law he says we should not lie with people in incest, and with animals etc. The law is exactly the same. Jesus shortens everything in brings a more simple insight into what was already there. Judah slept with Dinah. It doesnt mean God approved of it, it just means that the bible is discussing that situation, because a lot of people will be able to relate to it. The bible a relative book.

I think this is what you meant, but I wanted to clarify: some sex is forbidden. Sex in a legitimate marriage is required.

Judah had sex with Tamar, thinking she as a prostitute and not realizing that she was his daughter-in-law. Dinah was his sister! Shechem the Hivite either fornicated with her or raped her, and wanted to marry her.

In regards of laws regulating marriage and sexual activity it wasn't God but Moses allowing laxity.

Matt 19: 7
He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.

Polygamy seems to be allowed but it results in strife and discontent.

Fornication just means sex with anyone you arent married to, and also includes adultery if the person is married to someone else.

Does that clear things up?

God doesnt say what kind of sex in marriage is forbidden, i think oral sex is a form of worship. Anal sex is dangerous, but i think bondage and dressing up is okay. Just do what is natural and use sex in its natural form, its more for procreating than enjoyment. At least i didnt enjoy it much when i did it.

You need to go and read Genesis 34; rape in the Bible is not okay at all; in fact much of what you have said is not true or accurate.
I think it is you that needs to keep it Biblical and I find what you personally have stated here as extremely controversial which you knew full well when you started this thread.

Please could you explain why the website you have provided a link to sells a book for children by homosexual author Toni De Paola who wrote a book for children about having 2 gay Dad’s?
There is something wrong here with that site and with you; what kind of church are you in if you would be kind enough to tell us?

The words most often translated 'worship' from both Hebrew and Greek might literally be translated 'prostrate.' Some translations will use 'worship' in one context and 'bow down' or something similar in another. Would getting in a similar position--prostration or kneeling-- to fix a pipe under the sink be considered worship in your opinion?