Does the Tanakh teach how Cain killed Abel? A simple case study of contextual analysis and probability.

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Aug 14, 2019
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#21
is possible that Cain murdered Abel with the very knife that Abel used to kill and offer the lamb
That's good. Almost like the whole journey there.

Abel offers the first liturgical expression of the Gospel. Like the OT does

Then Cain makes the Gospel according to Abel a historic reality. Like the NT does.


I would like to add one more to your list.

When Cain spilled Abel's blood, his was all the blood ever shed on earth.

Grace and Peace
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,957
13,615
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#22
This is another assumption that I wonder about.

The bible says Adam and Eve were clothed with skins but doesn't mention any kind of sacrifice or killing of any animal.

We just assume that because that is the only way WE could provide skins to Adam and Eve then that is the only way God could provide them.

It seems like an honest assumption based in good logic. Not sure why I stumble a little bit by it. Its one of those things where I wish we had 5 or 6 verses describing how Adam and Eve were clothed...
The Bible does this a lot, actually
Like God wants us to figure some things out. He gives us clues.

Like some people will argue that Abel didn't kill sheep for his offering. The text doesn't specify that he did, and they don't want him to have.
What it does say is that he gave some of the inward parts, the fat. It's pretty straightforward that you kinda have to harm the sheep to get its fat out of its body, IMO.. but people will actually go to bat to say you don't.
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
11,551
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#23
The Bible does this a lot, actually
Like God wants us to figure some things out. He gives us clues.

Like some people will argue that Abel didn't kill sheep for his offering. The text doesn't specify that he did, and they don't want him to have.
What it does say is that he gave some of the inward parts, the fat. It's pretty straightforward that you kinda have to harm the sheep to get its fat out of its body, IMO.. but people will actually go to bat to say you don't.
I thought it would be obvious that Abel sacrificed a lamb since it was foreshadowing Christ. And the WHOLE REASON why Abels offering was accepted and Cains was not.

I have heard people try to say no one ate meat until much later in the OT times.

I always pointed to Abel saying if they were sacrificing lambs it sure would be a waste if they weren't eating it. The vegetarians don't like that line of thinking.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
7,312
2,428
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#24
This is another assumption that I wonder about.

The bible says Adam and Eve were clothed with skins but doesn't mention any kind of sacrifice or killing of any animal.

We just assume that because that is the only way WE could provide skins to Adam and Eve then that is the only way God could provide them.

It seems like an honest assumption based in good logic. Not sure why I stumble a little bit by it. Its one of those things where I wish we had 5 or 6 verses describing how Adam and Eve were clothed...
It is true that scripture does not tell us that Cain and Abel knew of the principles of the Lord. That they knew is an assumption, something we must be very careful about. But this assumption is not adding anything to the principles of the Lord or changing it in any way.

An addition to the word is made by our church in assuming that Mary changed the Sabbath by not discovering that Christ rose until Sunday, and that a discovery of the risen Christ would change the day God made into a Sabbath. That is an addition, and I don't think this assumption adds anything to the word of the Lord like changing the Sabbath is.
 
Aug 14, 2019
1,374
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#25
We just assume that because that is the only way WE could provide skins to Adam and Eve then that is the only way God could provide them.
What kind of animal? I mean was it snake skin? Human skin? We're animals. I think that may be God's point . The thing is the sign of that first covenant was, is our body.. human immortality made visible the dignity God endowed man with. The immortality of the body revealed the image and likeness of God. That truth wasn't something that needed taught it was plain as the nose on our face. It would be like being uncertain whether or not if walking upright is natural to man. There was no reason to wonder what makes man different than the other animals That's easy. They die. Now so do we. Our bodies obey the law written on all flesh. death awakened that law in our flesh. I think I got it now. The immortality of the body revealed that man was different than the other animals. In the day we ate the fruit human life didn't look different than the other animals. Adam and Eve covered their bodies with plant leaves. God provided animal skin because that accurately signified the truth. I think that.
 
S

Scribe

Guest
#26
It's a good topic. Thanks for starting it.
I was just reading today in a book on "Old Testament Survey: The Message Form and Background of the Old Testament" by William Sanfor Lasor, David Allan Hubbard, and Frederic William Bush, that Cain meant "forger of metals"
I have also read before that it meant Gotten.
So far we have:
Forger of Metals
Gotten
Spear

Any more?
 

Skovand

Active member
Aug 17, 2020
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#27
For me my assumptions have to be based one a few things.

1. Abel was called Abel before he was murdered by Cain and yet Abel’s name means “like vapor” implying short lived.

2. Hebrew was not the first language. By the the time genesis was wrote, it was thousands of years after the events took place and by that time the language the tribe was speaking was Hebrew. The writer of Hebrew wrote the story and picked the names. We see this in many places where a characters story is tied to their fate. The book of Ruth is full of this literary technique.

3. I’m not sure why this keeps coming up. I’ll go ahead and post both links to showcase what Cain’s name means. Cain’s name in Hebrew is Qayin. That’s the same word for spear.

https://biblehub.com/hebrew/7013.htm

The name Qayin is also a phonetical play on another word. That word is qanah and means to obtain.

https://biblehub.com/hebrew/7069.htm

In verse 4:8 of Genesis we read the phrase “ and killed” when it talks about Cain killing Abel. That specific phrase is only found in three places throughout the entire Torah. The first is with Cain ( whose name means spear ) and the other two times is when a Egyptian man is killed with a spear.

https://biblehub.com/hebrew/vaiyahargehu_2026.htm

—————————————————————

I never said Jesus was killed by a spear. I was showing a hyperlink that Jewish Christians would have picked up on when reading the gospels. It’s very straight forward but I’ll line them a bit more out.

In genesis we read of Cain being jealous over Abel being accepted as pleasing to God. Cain was accused of being wicked. Cain and Abel end up in a field ( a field is a cultivated place) and Cain murders Abel. His blood cries out and God asks Cain a question. “ What have you done?)

In the gospels we read of the Pharisees being jealous over Jesus. They see his works, and mock him for where he came from and Jesus repeatedly calls them out on their wickedness and pride. They come and get Jesus from a orchard ( a cultivated place ) and murder him by nailing him to a cross and before it’s all over to ensure he’s dead a spear is drove through his side between his ribs. Ribs, also play a part in the beginning chapters of genesis when eve is taken from Adams side and he says we are one. Two become one. In Christ, we are one. We are the body and he’s the head. Also while this is going on before he dies Jesus says something very interesting. “ Forgive then for they don’t know what they do” which definitely seems to call all the back to Cain on why he did what he did.

- ——————————————————————

A few times it was asked, did they have spears back then. When the story was wrote the Hebrews were very aware of what spears were. Spears have been around for tens of thousands of years.


My conclusions are not based on blind speculation but scriptures focusing on parallels and exact phrases being used. Cain entered the field clearly with the intention to murder his brother Abel. Afterwards he was scared that others away from Eden would try to murder him as well.
 

Skovand

Active member
Aug 17, 2020
359
54
28
Southeastern USA
#28
It's a good topic. Thanks for starting it.
I was just reading today in a book on "Old Testament Survey: The Message Form and Background of the Old Testament" by William Sanfor Lasor, David Allan Hubbard, and Frederic William Bush, that Cain meant "forger of metals"
I have also read before that it meant Gotten.
So far we have:
Forger of Metals
Gotten
Spear

Any more?
Part of the issue may be early scholars using the Septuagint and confusing the phonetically similar phrases.

I lined it out a bit more in my response with the links the actual words.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,769
3,678
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#29
Does the Tanakh teach how Cain killed Abel? A simple case study of contextual analysis and probability?

I believe Paul sheds light on that matter...

But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
(Gal 4:29)
 
S

Scribe

Guest
#30
For me my assumptions have to be based one a few things.

1. Abel was called Abel before he was murdered by Cain and yet Abel’s name means “like vapor” implying short lived.

2. Hebrew was not the first language. By the the time genesis was wrote, it was thousands of years after the events took place and by that time the language the tribe was speaking was Hebrew. The writer of Hebrew wrote the story and picked the names. We see this in many places where a characters story is tied to their fate. The book of Ruth is full of this literary technique.

3. I’m not sure why this keeps coming up. I’ll go ahead and post both links to showcase what Cain’s name means. Cain’s name in Hebrew is Qayin. That’s the same word for spear.

https://biblehub.com/hebrew/7013.htm

The name Qayin is also a phonetical play on another word. That word is qanah and means to obtain.

https://biblehub.com/hebrew/7069.htm

In verse 4:8 of Genesis we read the phrase “ and killed” when it talks about Cain killing Abel. That specific phrase is only found in three places throughout the entire Torah. The first is with Cain ( whose name means spear ) and the other two times is when a Egyptian man is killed with a spear.

https://biblehub.com/hebrew/vaiyahargehu_2026.htm

—————————————————————

I never said Jesus was killed by a spear. I was showing a hyperlink that Jewish Christians would have picked up on when reading the gospels. It’s very straight forward but I’ll line them a bit more out.

In genesis we read of Cain being jealous over Abel being accepted as pleasing to God. Cain was accused of being wicked. Cain and Abel end up in a field ( a field is a cultivated place) and Cain murders Abel. His blood cries out and God asks Cain a question. “ What have you done?)

In the gospels we read of the Pharisees being jealous over Jesus. They see his works, and mock him for where he came from and Jesus repeatedly calls them out on their wickedness and pride. They come and get Jesus from a orchard ( a cultivated place ) and murder him by nailing him to a cross and before it’s all over to ensure he’s dead a spear is drove through his side between his ribs. Ribs, also play a part in the beginning chapters of genesis when eve is taken from Adams side and he says we are one. Two become one. In Christ, we are one. We are the body and he’s the head. Also while this is going on before he dies Jesus says something very interesting. “ Forgive then for they don’t know what they do” which definitely seems to call all the back to Cain on why he did what he did.

- ——————————————————————

A few times it was asked, did they have spears back then. When the story was wrote the Hebrews were very aware of what spears were. Spears have been around for tens of thousands of years.


My conclusions are not based on blind speculation but scriptures focusing on parallels and exact phrases being used. Cain entered the field clearly with the intention to murder his brother Abel. Afterwards he was scared that others away from Eden would try to murder him as well.
I don't see anything wrong with the speculation and you might be on to something. I am not yet convinced that Spear is the meaning intended in the hebrew word. I don't object to the symbolism or even the possiblity of the invention of the spear being already known (after all how long does it take a 3-5 year old playing in the back yard to figure out the value of a sharp poking stick) but I am not yet persuaded that your lexical analysis is the opinion of the majority of Hebrew scholars. I think it might be up for debate as to whether Spear was the meaning of the name or "Aquired" was intended when the name was given by Eve. If it is Aquired then the meaning could be that Even was thinking that this was the ONE that was promised to crush the serpent's head since he was the first after the promise was made. It may be that she was saying I have Aquired, or Gotten the One that the Lord spoke of, that Seed that would bruise the serpents Head. That is a popular interpretation as to why she named him Aquired.
You are suggesting that the meaning is Spear instead. This might be true, I am not a Hebrew Scholar. I am reviewing what others have written about the word. קַיִן‎ Qáyin which seems to be associated with qā·nî·ṯî קָנִ֥יתִי I have aquired. So that she is calling him aquired.
 
S

Scribe

Guest
#31
Part of the issue may be early scholars using the Septuagint and confusing the phonetically similar phrases.

I lined it out a bit more in my response with the links the actual words.
You might be on to something. It is not such an easy translation and the Aquired seems to be a logical conclusion rather than an unquestionable translation. This is where I need to fast forward my life to the future after I have taken 3 years of Hebrew.
:)
 

soggykitten

Well-known member
Jul 3, 2020
2,322
1,369
113
#32
When you ask most people does the Bible teach how Cain murdered Abel the typical response is no. However; by teasing out the literary knowledge lost to many we can get a deeper understanding of the final moments. It’s tucked away in the original language in two main ways.

The first is the easiest to pick out. It’s Cain’s name. In Hebrew his name is, קַיִן which is romanized as Qayin and it means spear. Concordance reference is H7013&7014. The second is a bit harder to stumble across. It comes from Genesis 4:8.


Genesis 4:8 NASB
8 Cain told Abel his brother. And it came about when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother and killed him.

The main word to focus on is “ and killed him” which is וַיַּהַרְגֵֽהוּ which is wrote as “wayyaharḡêhū” and it only occurs in three places in the entire Old Testament. Genesis 4:8 and the other two are about the same story. It’s when Benaiah killed a Egyptian with a spear. Thats in 2 Samuel 23:21 and 1 Chronicles 11:23.

So the reason why it’s probable that Cain used a spear to murder Abel is because his name itself means spear and the phrase used in Hebrew when Cain murdered able is also only used two other times and it’s when a man murdered another with a spear.

Also it’s cool that we can see a similar theme hyperlinking Christ with Abel. They were both innocent people murdered by others and each one had a spear thrusted into them. Each one was murdered by those pretending to honor God who were angry at the real submission the others was giving to God.
No, not the Tanakh but the Apocryphal Book of Jubilees 4:31: “He [Cain] killed Abel with a stone”
 
S

Scribe

Guest
#33
No, not the Tanakh but the Apocryphal Book of Jubilees 4:31: “He [Cain] killed Abel with a stone”
I wonder why all the movies show it with a club over the head.
 

Sipsey

Well-known member
Sep 27, 2018
1,502
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#34
Here is another theory with some good grammatical support;

John writes about Cain in 1John 3:12: We should not be like Cain, who was from the evil one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his own deeds were evil and his brother's righteous. Let’s unravel the verse beginning at the end: Cain killed Abel because his deeds were evil and his brother’s deeds were righteous. That means, prior to killing Abel, Cain’s deeds were evil. What were Cain’s deeds? He offered up the works of his hands—these fruits and vegetables—to God. Cain’s own hard work and his own offering to God are called here evil. The word for deeds here is ergon (ἔργον) [pronounced EHR-gon], which means works, deeds, business, employment, that which any one is occupied; that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking; any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind; an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasized in opp. to that which is less than work. [Primarily Thayer definitions]. Strong’s #2041. Notice, these are deeds, works, overt acts. We’re not looking at Cain’s motivation here, we are looking at his production, and the Bible tells us that his production of bringing these luscious fruits and vegetables to God was evil. If you conjure up the illustration—of a man who works on a stopped up toilet, and then, without washing his hands, prepares you a wonderful looking fruit salad—that illustrates what Cain’s works are to God. These works are inspired by Satan, herein called the evil one, as Cain is spoken of as being from the evil one.

We should not be like Cain, who was from the evil one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his own deeds were evil and his brother's righteous. There is one more fascinating thing buried in the Greek in this verse—the word for murder is sphazô (σφάζω) [pronounced SPHAHD-zoh], which means to slay, slaughter, butcher; to put to death by violence; to mortally wounded. Strong’s #4969. The primary use of this word, particularly in the Old Testament
, means to slaughter a sacrificial animal. Generally speaking, that means to grab or bind the animal and to slit its throat with a sharp knife so that the blood is quickly pumped out of the body via the carotid. This confirms that Cain, after watching Abel kill several sacrifices, decides to kill Abel in the same way.

The use of this particular Greek verb is further evidence of the use of a knife.
 
S

Scribe

Guest
#35
Here is another theory with some good grammatical support;

John writes about Cain in 1John 3:12: We should not be like Cain, who was from the evil one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his own deeds were evil and his brother's righteous. Let’s unravel the verse beginning at the end: Cain killed Abel because his deeds were evil and his brother’s deeds were righteous. That means, prior to killing Abel, Cain’s deeds were evil. What were Cain’s deeds? He offered up the works of his hands—these fruits and vegetables—to God. Cain’s own hard work and his own offering to God are called here evil. The word for deeds here is ergon (ἔργον) [pronounced EHR-gon], which means works, deeds, business, employment, that which any one is occupied; that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking; any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind; an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasized in opp. to that which is less than work. [Primarily Thayer definitions]. Strong’s #2041. Notice, these are deeds, works, overt acts. We’re not looking at Cain’s motivation here, we are looking at his production, and the Bible tells us that his production of bringing these luscious fruits and vegetables to God was evil. If you conjure up the illustration—of a man who works on a stopped up toilet, and then, without washing his hands, prepares you a wonderful looking fruit salad—that illustrates what Cain’s works are to God. These works are inspired by Satan, herein called the evil one, as Cain is spoken of as being from the evil one.

We should not be like Cain, who was from the evil one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his own deeds were evil and his brother's righteous. There is one more fascinating thing buried in the Greek in this verse—the word for murder is sphazô (σφάζω) [pronounced SPHAHD-zoh], which means to slay, slaughter, butcher; to put to death by violence; to mortally wounded. Strong’s #4969. The primary use of this word, particularly in the Old Testament
, means to slaughter a sacrificial animal. Generally speaking, that means to grab or bind the animal and to slit its throat with a sharp knife so that the blood is quickly pumped out of the body via the carotid. This confirms that Cain, after watching Abel kill several sacrifices, decides to kill Abel in the same way.

The use of this particular Greek verb is further evidence of the use of a knife.
hmmmm.....:unsure:
 

Skovand

Active member
Aug 17, 2020
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Southeastern USA
#36
All I can say is that I posted the links to the definitions that biblical scholars have appointed to words and Cain’s name is spelled exactly the same as Spear and sounds similar to ( not spelled the same ) as to obtain.

And Cain did treat Abel almost as if he was a sacrifice in place of what he originally did. So Greek referring to it as sacrificial does not undermine spear by any means.
 
S

Scribe

Guest
#37
I think its really funny all the assumptions that people make by what they read. And then kind of even more funny when other people just run with those assumptions and agree with them as if they are facts.

With that said, I would have answered that Cain hit Abel with a rock from behind. I would have said I thought I read it in the bible.

Then I would have been surprised when I didn't find it...:ROFL:
Yes! I have heard many people say that the bible says Cain hit Abel in the head with a rock, and also a club. Not both. LOL I meant I have heard people say one or the other.
 

Skovand

Active member
Aug 17, 2020
359
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Southeastern USA
#39
Even following it from Greek and backtracking Cain’s name it shows it’s the same as spear.

https://biblehub.com/hebrew/7014b.htm

Also in the verses you mentioned this comes up.

https://biblehub.com/text/1_john/3-12.htm

The world for slain is used twice in the same sentence.

https://biblehub.com/greek/4969.htm

It says it has two meanings.

1. To butcher for food or as a sacrifice.
2. To violent kill.

We also see it being used in both of those ways. So the connection to it being a sacrificial knife is significantly less than it being a spear from all data.