Does the Tanakh teach how Cain killed Abel? A simple case study of contextual analysis and probability.

The first place to stay is how the story is written.

When you read genesis 1-11, with all its play on names, play on words, extreme situations, and spanning thousands of years with relatively little information.

Then read through the entire rest of the Torah and see does it carry the same weight?

Just think about a few key things.

1. The earth is just water, not frozen, even though a sun does not yet exist.

2. A flat circle shaped earth is protected from space water by a invisible dome.

3. There is a tree that a couple eats from that sustains their immortal life. After all why would immortal beings need a tree that grants immortality? So the tale is two humans that are sustained by a magic fruit that grants life.

4. That couple is made up of a mud golem who was breathed to life and his partner which was made from his side.

5. All of this occurred on the sixth day. Because it says on the sixth day God crested all animals on land and made humans, both male and female. So on the sixth day God gathered mud, breathed on it, and then called it human ( Adam means human ) and saw that it was not good ( so it was not perfect ) for man to be alone so he called all animals forth on the entire planet and Adam named each one of them ( millions of animals ) and none of them was satisfactory to be a partner. So he put him into a deep sleep ( much to be said on the meaning of that ) and made a woman from his side and called her life ( eve means life)

In a nutshell this is the first few chapters of genesis.

A water planet without any sun remains unfrozen. Over six days God generates everything in existence and on the sixth day he made a man from mud and a woman from the man’s side. They lived in a garden eating fruit which included one that sustained their life. These mortal beings were kept immortal through the magical fruit. One day a talking snake tricks them. They get cast out and have a bunch of sons and daughters. Eventually they get to Cain and Abel. Cain murders Abel and then flees as a wanderer banished from Eden. Before leaving he’s given a tattoo that warns anyone who kills him they will meet a worse fate. Then the couple is given another son named Seth. Cain and one of sisters have kids together and within there genealogy no ages are given and within Seth’s , who also marries a sister, they are given a genealogy full of extraordinary long lives. Roughly a thousand years after a Seth’s birth is a child named Noah who build a giant ark that houses 2-7 specimens of every known species while the dome up above the earth opens allowing space water to pour down while water below earth is erupting forth flooding and killing everyone not on the boat. ( how salt water fish survived the fresh water saturation is unknown). They all survive and repopulate the earth , somehow the giants also survived because it does mention these special potentially half human half angel offsprings before and after the flood. Lots of more time goes by and all of mankind join together in harmony and begin to build a tower that can reach heaven ( how was a building going to reach heaven we don’t really know - among a literal interpretation anyways. God , who can be everywhere all the time decides to come down ( because apparently heaven is literally up above us beyond the clouds ) to earth and sees what’s going on and so he destroys the tower and causes all of humanity to somehow learn different languages and they can no longer talk to one another and it’s at this time that Pangea begins to be broken apart as nations drift across the ocean.

That’s a summary of eleven chapters.

Now make summaries of the next 11 chapters and several of them are , people are still in the desert people are still in the desert.

So I believe 100% in God and in the bible as being 100% true. But that does not mean I believe it’s 100% literal.

What about the plagues of Egypt, and the sea splitting? Myths? And Jesus healing the sick, raising the dead. If a man born blind can see from Jesus healing him, or a man dead four days can be raised by the Word of Jesus, why can't God make a man from dirt and woman from his side.

Your summary was full of bad heremeneutics. There are no angel human giants. That is not in the text.
No one survived the flood but Noah and his family.
The earth was without form and void and that could speak of gaseous mixture just like what astronomy suggest about the birth of a planet.
In the days of Peleg the earth was divided has nothing to do with splitting of continents, you can see from the genealogy that Pelegs days were when the languages were confused at Babel.

There are not many details given because only what is important for the Theological lesson is recorded and to be received as special revelation from God to man that we could not have known without it being revealed. It is not a science manual and does not attempt to prove God's existence but assumes it.
It simply makes statements and they are to be received as sufficient detail for the theological lesson intended. Who is God? Who is man? What is required of man? How did man fall? What has God done to redeem man to himself? These are the main messages and the story is about the origin of sin and the origin and promise of God's redemption.

Man was not created immortal as you assume, but was dependent upon God and the provision of God to live forever, and so it will also be after the resurrection, man will have eternal life and be given access to the tree of life and will be giving what he needs to sustain life because man will always be dependent upon God and the provision from God to sustain eternal life. Your understanding was flawed at a fundamental level with the concept that eating from a tree of life was contradiction to being able to live forever.
Your concept that man should not have to eat from a tree of life was of your own invention and not what God revealed to be the truth. And in like manner your expressed in-credulousness related to these stories is not because they are far fetched but rather you have read into them meanings that are not intended. You are turning them into myths and fables when it is not necessary to do so.
The stories are purposely concise but it is not impossible that there were a literal creature in the garden we do not have reference point for today that satan used to speak through to deceive the woman and that creature was changed and so we have no idea what it looked like before. That a parrot can speak with perfect imitations should give you proof enough that a real creature could have been used to speak to Eve. It is absolutely believable that it was literal. It is only unbelief that cause men to be so skeptical.

Later on because it’s such a large topic made up of a series of topics I’ll make separate threads for each one.

Again it has absolutely nothing to do with doubting God. After all I believe in a resurrection. I believe in God. So automatically, it sets me up in the camp to believe in the unbelievable.

My understanding that genesis is clearly hyperbolic and not literal stems solely from scripture. Not everyone will accept it. That’s fine. When I’m honing in on a specific topic, ill provide a deeper understanding of why.

I make false statements!! WOW.

There is a big difference between denying that the Lord gives actual events to show us His principles and all parables are actual events, and it is the only way scripture teaches. The Lord tells us when He speaks of history and when He isn't. It is not false to say so.

Yes you made several false statements when you tried to infer that my interpretation meant not believing in God or the Bible. That was 100% wrong.

The idea that I would have a right to judge your faith--well, I most certainly haven't such a right. I can judge scripture, but most certainly not you, and I sure didn't mean to imply I was doing that.

I am so sorry you had the unpleasant experience of thinking you were judged. I only wanted to say that I think God gives real history as God teaches us, absolutely nothing more.

Well I’m sorry for misunderstanding. It’s a common objection tossed at me that because I believe some of the Bible is symbolic based on the text, and then use science to further support it , that I somehow don’t have real faith or study when in reality I study the Bible daily, I spend hours over the weekends reading scripture and buy or check out dozens of scholarly books a year and so on.

While the spear could of been the weapon there are may other metaphors to indicate the mark of Cain. Gods word is law according to the letter death ."Cain sufferings the wages of hell. Sufferings without the sabbath rest of Christ.

Restless wander" would be the metaphor. Always looking over his back as in he knew death was coming with no hope of ever rising. No one watching his back . We have Christ the rear guard. His love like a fortress hems us in.

Flesh and blood the temporal things seen are used to represent sin.

I would offer . When the glory departed the light of His presence left and they then knew they were naked not clothed with the righteousness of Christ. The flesh minus the glory became corrupted. That glory will return in the new heavens and earth .The corruption time keeper the Sun and the moon will be under the feet of the bride . The end of time. No longer under the Sun .Glory, glory, glory.

Corrupted Flesh and blood as rudiments of this world will no enter the new order. As sons of God the bride of Christ we are not what we will be when the glorious day does come. Then we will take on the glow of His Holy presence and not be found naked without his righteousness .

And who gets to pick and choose what is an allegorical symbolism and what actually happened?

I believe great violence is done to God’s Word when we make ourselves the arbiter of what is fictional and what is true in the Bible.

Very interesting, and makes sense.
Goliath also had a spear.
Thank you for posting.

Scripture determines it. Contextual analysis. It helps to understand science and ancient Mesopotamian world views. Jews were a tribe of Mesopotamia. We can find early writings by them and see what type of language they used. Same as how we can look at Greek culture and mindsets and see them being used by paul. Lots of it is seeing what’s said in one place and filtering it through the rest of scripture.

Such as in genesis when it says God fame down to see what mankind was doing concerning the Tower of Babel.

Did God really come down? Is heaven literally up above us beyond the clouds and stars? If God is everywhere why did he have to come down? Can’t he see everything from everywhere because he is all over?

When Jousha and the others pass over into the promise land and come back and report their are giants there and we are like grasshoppers in their eyes and the land is flowing with milk and honey.

Do we really believe that the others were so large that we are like grasshoppers in their eyes. I’m 100x as tall as a grasshopper. We can know it’s hyperbolic and that the others were not hundreds of feet tall. We know the land was not literally flowing with milk and honey.

It’s fairly clear.

Adam and Eve named the Cain the first born "acquired possession" .Thinking Cain would provide the entity " between Adam and the Eve a way back into fellowship.

Abel meaning vanity or vapor. It taught them it was by faith after the second born . Abel the first to acquire grace or favor from God . The first mentioned apostle, prophet and martyr.. The pattern of the second born, born again with power .

Used with Jesus the Son of man and Adam two generations one temporal the other eternal.

1 Corinthians 15:2 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Others could of been smaller . Literal size was no a factor or they type of carinal weapons..

Goliath learned you do not take a spear to a combat against a a sling shot. like taking a knife to combat against a shot Gun . One little GPS guided stone and the grasshopper fell 'Hit the grasshopper Goliath right between the eyes

It had to do with lack of faith trusting God. Physical size does not describe the word "renown". Renown is used 9 times in the Old testament

The renown of God are mighty men he empowered to do his will . Both sides had men of renown (famous)

David as a son of God, born again from above was strengthened in faith to destroy the renown of the enemy, Goliath .

Goliath seemed like a grasshopper to David.

The Spirit of Christ informs us he would never consider the seed of Goliath as "renown" mighty men of old moved by faith.

Isaiah 14:20 Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned.


The Jew tried to make the renown about their own flesh But they would not be given the title. Again it belongs to those might men moved to do the will of God.

Ezekiel 16:15 But thou didst trust in thine own beauty, and playedst the harlot because of thy renown, and pouredst out thy fornications on every one that passed by; his it was

Genesis 6 is simply teaching not to be un-evenly yoked .The Holy Spirit was simply protecting the seed propmised in Genesis 3:15 .

God used mighty men of faith even after the flood. He uses them today.

The issue though that I have pointed out numerous times is this.

Cain’s name does not mean acquired. It simply sounds like it. It sounds similar, but is not the same by any means. But it is spelled exactly the same as spear. The hebrew word for spear Is the same as Cain’s name. The word for acquired sounds similar to the ears. It rhymes. But it’s a different world.

Not to mention the phrase used in genesis 4 about Cain killing Abel is used only in two other places. Those two other places also contains Cain’s name but for spear.

I see. So YOU get to decide what is fact and what is fiction.

Did God create Adam and Eve, from which all humanity derives?

Did God save 8 humans and pairs of animals to repopulate the world after He destroyed it with a flood?

Did God destroy Sodom and Gomorrah, yet save Lot and his daughters?

Did Lot’s wife turn into a pillar of salt?

Did God through Moses perform all the plagues that affected only the Egyptians?

Did God through Moses part and dry the Red Sea so that all of Israel could cross and then drown the whole Egyptian army?

Did walking around the walls of the massive walls of Jericho and shouting cause them to crumble down?

Did God stop the sun in the sky for a whole day so Israel and the hailstones Could wipe out the Amorites?

Did Samson kill a thousand Phillistines by Himself with the jaw bone of an axe?

Did Jonah spend 3 days in the belly of a great fish?

I could go on for pages. But somehow you think you have the knowledge to choose what is fact and what is fiction in God’s Sacred Word.

One last one: Did the God who created ALL things make Himself into a human being, through a virgin giving birth to Him, then perform scores of miracles, culminating in His resurrection, after being crucified, and dying, to pay our sin debt??????????

The weapons' of a Christian warfare are not carnal. The emphasize is on acquired possession. Adam and Eve saw the vanity of walking by sight. Cain was not the seed promises in Genesis 3:15 .it was configured after the second born Abel .Christ's first born seed . Who Adam and Eve named vanity or vapor, Abel the first martyr.

Abel .Again to support the vain idea that we walk by sight after the carinal ., David the renown as a mighty man used a small stone against the spear of Goliath. The spear of vanity.

So, the question that the poster brought up was: is God up there/down /over there? Is God in all places at at once?

@PennEd responded with many examples. So I am now confused. Do we take the bible exactly as it is written and

did Jonah spend 3 days in the belly of a fish? Great example.

Looking forward to the answers here. Thank you.

“I have gotten a man with the help of the Lord.”

“God has appointed for me another offspring



When Adam had lived 130 years, he fathered a son in his own likeness, after his image, and named him Seth.

I think the reason the preferred meaning of Cains name is 'aquired' 'possession' is because it points to the environment provided by Eve. Cain's reality was one in which human life came from women with God as a helper.
Adam has no mentionable role. This is important because this environment formed a murderer.

God created man and man creates man.
Man develops in her womb.
At this time Eve is queen on her throne.
The first family in the very beginning of history was matriarchal.
This is a very useful thing to know.

Contrast that with her statement when Seth is born.
Rather than 'I' as the beginning of the statement, it begins with 'God' and the baby is not 'a man' but 'offspring'.
The father's role is central as expressed in the next chapter.

Everything is in it's proper order when Seth is born.

I really do believe that's why the preferred meaning for Cain is 'aquired'.