Sin and Glory

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posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#21
Jul 31, 2013
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#21
throughfaith said:
He paid for everyone's sins ( reconciled the world ) So if sin is no longer the issue why do you think that means that people are automatically saved ?They won't be Glorifed . Why ? because they didn't recieve the Holy Spirit. why ? surely if Jesus paid all their sins they should automatically get the Holy Spirit at birth ? No . Why ? because to recieve the Holy Spirt , we need to recieve Jesus ( John 1.12 ) . Well surely if Jesus died for my sins ,don't I just recieve Jesus at birth ? no . Why ? because God said it pleases Him by the foolishness of the preaching to save them that believe. ( 1 cor 1 .21 ) " oh ,I see . So your telling me that although Jesus reconclied the whole world by his death its not then automatic that every is saved " yes that's correct , because to ' recieve ' the atonement it is accessed by Faith ,because Faith is the point of access to it all . Why ? because without Faith it is impossible to please God . simple .
We are saved by the death , burial AND resurrection. Not by the death alone . The old testament saints certainly appreciated it even if no one else ever did .So no it was not pointless dying for the entire cosmos .
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so you're fine with God condemning the guiltless?
 
O

oldethennew

Banned
#25
Feb 28, 2016
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#25
when Yeshua called 'us' as a 'couple/one', it was akin to Paul's road trip...
ever since then, we have learned how to 'love-serve-humble-understand His heart
and apply His Love to others through our words and walk...
 
T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#26
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
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#26
posthuman said:
all scripture testifies of Christ, John 5:39, and He is not divided, 1 Corinthians 1:13
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Context matters though . Other wise we'd all be building our Ark Gen 6.14
Make thee an ark of gopher wood; rooms shalt thou make in the ark, and shalt pitch it within and without with pitch.
or we might Follow Jesus s teaching here Mat 10
5¶These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
6But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
 
posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#27
Jul 31, 2013
37,834
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#27
throughfaith said:
Make thee an ark of gopher wood; rooms shalt thou make in the ark, and shalt pitch it within and without with pitch.
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look up the word 'pitch' -- it is the word, "atonement"

sealed inside and out with atonement. the many rooms inside - who is saved on earth except those inside? this is about Christ, Christ who already had fish on the coals when Peter ran to the shore. have some breakfast

He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

Peter said something about this, too - is baptism atonement or glorification? and Paul, all those He justified, He also glorified.
 
posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#28
Jul 31, 2013
37,834
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#28
throughfaith said:
go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel
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i see a problem if you've got God condemning anyone to whom He imputes no sin. "He will by no means acquit the guilty" Exodus 34, Nahum 1 -- same God.

But because the LORD loved you and kept the oath He swore to your fathers
(Deuteronomy 7:7)
​
do you see a problem with Him speaking first to His people He chose to Himself? 'judgement begins with the household of God'
He's keeping His oath, and the promise: 'through your Offspring all nations' Genesis 22

to give His life as a ransom for many
(Matthew 20:28)​
​
 
G

Guojing

Banned
#29
Jan 12, 2019
7,497
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#29
throughfaith said:
Jesus had not died for the sins of the world then had He ? Not until much later . chapter 19. 30When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
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Unfortunately, thanks to evangelists like Billy Graham, many were taught that John 3:16 "is" the gospel that saves today.

That is why you get a lot of people trying to insert Paul's mystery revelations, into the entire book of John.
 
T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#30
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
1,593
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#30
posthuman said:
i see a problem if you've got God condemning anyone to whom He imputes no sin. "He will by no means acquit the guilty" Exodus 34, Nahum 1 -- same God.

But because the LORD loved you and kept the oath He swore to your fathers ​
(Deuteronomy 7:7) ​
​
do you see a problem with Him speaking first to His people He chose to Himself? 'judgement begins with the household of God'
He's keeping His oath, and the promise: 'through your Offspring all nations' Genesis 22

to give His life as a ransom for many ​
(Matthew 20:28)​
​
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You missed my point . They are commands ." Go build an ark " , Only go to the lost Sheep of the house of Israel " . So we have to be careful and read the context, before we just go off building Arks ect .
 
posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#31
Jul 31, 2013
37,834
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#31
throughfaith said:
You missed my point . They are commands ." Go build an ark " , Only go to the lost Sheep of the house of Israel " . So we have to be careful and read the context, before we just go off building Arks ect .
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if your point was to dismiss the scripture you asked me to give you 'because it's not contextually a command specifically to you' then i didn't miss it; i rejected it.
all the scripture is testimony of Him. we're talking about Him. He's not divided; He is the reason the record of Noah is given to us. the primary purpose of all these things is to instruct & edify us about God: His person and work. that means none of it is irrelevant, contrary to what it appears you mean by saying this:

throughfaith said:
You have an eclectic mixture of verses there . Some old testament, some new . Some to Israel ,ect ?
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and this:

throughfaith said:
Jesus had not died for the sins of the world then had He ?
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posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#32
Jul 31, 2013
37,834
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#32
throughfaith said:
Be reconciled to God . In what sense ? Believe and recieve the ' reconciliation ' , recieve the Atonement. Its not automatically thrust upon you without first pleasing God
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then not all are reconciled, but only those whose faith is in Him. not everyone's sin is atoned for, but only those who believe. you, yourself, are describing limited atonement.

i.e. tho He tasted death for every man, He bears the sins of 'many' not 'all' -- "if you do not believe, you will die in your sins"
 
T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#33
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
1,593
113
#33
posthuman said:
i see a problem if you've got God condemning anyone to whom He imputes no sin. "He will by no means acquit the guilty" Exodus 34, Nahum 1 -- same God.

But because the LORD loved you and kept the oath He swore to your fathers ​
(Deuteronomy 7:7) ​
​
do you see a problem with Him speaking first to His people He chose to Himself? 'judgement begins with the household of God'
He's keeping His oath, and the promise: 'through your Offspring all nations' Genesis 22

to give His life as a ransom for many ​
(Matthew ​
Click to expand...
posthuman said:
if your point was to dismiss the scripture you asked me to give you 'because it's not contextually a command specifically to you' then i didn't miss it; i rejected it.
all the scripture is testimony of Him. we're talking about Him. He's not divided; He is the reason the record of Noah is given to us. the primary purpose of all these things is to instruct & edify us about God: His person and work. that means none of it is irrelevant, contrary to what it appears you mean by saying this:



and this:
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I did not say ,we ignore the verses , far from it. Every word is important .
So context doesn't matter? we just follow every command in the bible ? if that's the case ,are you building an Ark .
 
posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#35
Jul 31, 2013
37,834
13,558
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#35
throughfaith said:
I did not say ,we ignore the verses , far from it. Every word is important .
So context doesn't matter? we just follow every command in the bible ? if that's the case ,are you building an Ark .
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which one of the verses i put for you when you asked for them, was a command to you to take some action?
they are all describing the work of God. all scripture is testimony of Christ for our edification.

are you trying to find a way not to hear them by saying, 'don't build an ark' ?
 
T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#36
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
1,593
113
#36
posthuman said:
then not all are reconciled, but only those whose faith is in Him. not everyone's sin is atoned for, but only those who believe. you, yourself, are describing limited atonement.

i.e. tho He tasted death for every man, He bears the sins of 'many' not 'all' -- "if you do not believe, you will die in your sins"
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Hebrews 2.9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for EVERY MAN . ?
Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the WORLD
John 1.29
 
posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#37
Jul 31, 2013
37,834
13,558
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#37
throughfaith said:
response ..able .
For this people's heart is 'waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed';
lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart,
and should be converted, and I should heal them'.
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what He shuts, no man opens.

if God shuts their ears and eyes with the express purpose that they not hear and not see, how can you say man is able and responsible to open what He shut, and undo His will? does man make the hearing ear or the seeing eye?
 
posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#38
Jul 31, 2013
37,834
13,558
113
#38
throughfaith said:
Hebrews 2.9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for EVERY MAN . ?
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  1. do you believe in universal salvation?
  2. do you believe God condemns the innocent?
 
T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#39
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
1,593
113
#39
posthuman said:
which one of the verses i put for you when you asked for them, was a command to you to take some action?
they are all describing the work of God. all scripture is testimony of Christ for our edification.

are you trying to find a way not to hear them by saying, 'don't build an ark' ?
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Is there any difference to before and after the cross and the resurrection in your theology ?
 
T

throughfaith

Well-known member
#40
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
1,593
113
#40
posthuman said:
which one of the verses i put for you when you asked for them, was a command to you to take some action?
they are all describing the work of God. all scripture is testimony of Christ for our edification.

are you trying to find a way not to hear them by saying, 'don't build an ark' ?
Click to expand...
Edification and learning ect yes . To follow every verse ? no
 
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