License to sin ?

Romans 6
1¶What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5¶For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
I believe these verses and I believe we should apply them. In some discussions on here I can see we have some differences in how we understand salvation. I believe we should literally 'reckon 'ourselves ' as dead to sin as this verse is saying :
11Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Now this involves faith. That we trust the word of God on this . That we are dead to sin and its consequences in terms of the penalty of sin . A believer cannot be lost or forfeit salvation. Now this is where some will object and usually when doing so they flip Romans 6 upside down and make it about how
WE need to conquer sin in our lives in order to be dead to sin . But the verses are saying the opposite . We are 'dead 'to sin . And we are to Reckon ( believe) this as a fact. So the focus is about what Jesus has DONE and not what we DO . The main issue I see with those that hold to loss of salvation is that they find eternal security as a licence to sin . As if this teaches the problem rather than the cure . I believe Paul in all of His letters is trying to tell them they are eternally secure and in light of this they ought to live a certain way. I see some believe the opposite and see the Part where Paul is telling them they ought to live a certain way in light of they could fall away or forfeit salvation. I see this as the major divide in those that hold to Eternal security and those that don't.
Thoughts . Do you see Paul teaching the saints to live as they ought because they are Eternally secure ( as i see it ) or do you see Paul teaching they ought to live as a way of keeping there salvation ?

1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? (having the heart of stone token out)

3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? (death to the old man ways)

4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. (having been given a new heart to live by)

5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: (parts of us have died away and new life been given)

6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him,(your hate anger rage) that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin (what to not live in hate anger rage)

7 For he that is dead is freed from sin. (who is dead ?those that live in peace and grace)

8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: (having the holy spirit live in us)

9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him(showing the power of the word)

10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God(you get saved one time take and live to God)

11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord(only through christ)

Roman 6 is showing the way to a new life
a life of peace and joy
coming out from the old and into the new

blessings

not sure about the 'new heart '
reference?
Also not sure about 7and 8 ?
And I belive most of this is literal not figurative.
7) is literal ' freed from sin ' not that we don't or cannot sin anymore , but we are freed from the authority and penalty of sin .

not sure about the 'new heart '
reference?
Also not sure about 7and 8

and I would see most of these verses as a literal reality . Like literally dead to sin .

Romans 6:1-11 shows an ingenious solution to man's intrinsic nature - the sin-nature inherited from Adam. Just as all men where IN Adam, that is, in his loins, all Christians were, and are, IN Christ (Jn.12:24). So when Christ went to death on the cross, all those IN Him went to the cross too. Christ's body, though sinless, was from Mary - a part of the Adamic creation. So He ENDS IT by death. And all who were IN Him got terminated too. But God requires a "sign" that the Christian VOLUNTARILY and IN OBEDIENCE takes this way. He must be IMMERSED in water. That is, factually, we are crucified with Christ (Gal.2:20), but to start on a road where the sin-nature, that rules all men, is terminated, that is, a road of OBEDIENCE, we must partake of the FIRST ACT of obedience - Baptism.

Romans 6 ASSUMES that the believer is born again. That is the only way to be IN Christ. It then addresses TWO THINGS that pertain to the KINGDOM, not salvation.

1. For the Kingdom we have to be "LIKE" Christ in our resurrection (verse 5) - for "flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom" (1st Cor.15:50-53)
2. For victory over the Adamic Nature we need to partake of the death of the old creation, and walk (daily) in the newness of RESURRECTION LIFE - a LIFE that quickens THE BODY of sin

Romans 6 is written to BELIEVERS. It does not answer the question of eternal security. It addresses whether a believer will walk a life of obedience to God AND subsequently ENTER THE KINGDOM (Matt.7:21). By the "Kingdom" I mean the Kingdom (out) OF Heaven when it is set up on earth. I do not mean "going to heaven". It is "Thy Kingdom COME (from heaven to EARTH), and "Thy will be dome ON EARTH as it is in heaven".

For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good.ETC

"I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin."

Out of everything Paul wrote..really the sweet Holy Spirit.. did you ever once get the impression he thought he could "lose" his salvation? No. See you are not just what you see and feel. That is the flesh. He when you asked believed in Christ Jesus became a new creation which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. Its not your righteousness its His. So yes we don't practice sin and this flesh nothing good dwells in it. Its not been changed yet.

I am secure in my salvation and I don't think feel I will ever lose it. I love Christ so I want to keep His word.. I want to please my Father. That right there.. that comes only by faith. The only way to please Him. To this very day I don't know anyone that knows they will never lose their salvation haha think ooh I can sin all I want. Lose or osas.. you still do not have the right to sin. So I have faith that in Christ hands which in the Fathers hands.. I am 100% secure. As the word says.. I have been born again or born from above.. its not of this world and it is not governed by this world.

Do you see 'Baptism here 'as 'water '? it doesn't mention water ?

The Root word is "Baptizo" which means "to submerge as dyeing a garment". It is used in scripture to denote three things:

1. Submerging in water to end the old things
2. Submerging in the Holy Spirit for power to serve
3. Being immersed in a trial

The context of Romans 6:1-11 is clearly the ending of the old and coming forth in newness. Thus, just as Noah must pass through the flood for the "new world", Abraham must pass through the flood to leave Haran for Canaan (Josh.24:2), and Israel must be submerged in the Red Sea (1st Cor.10) for leaving Egypt and reaching the Good Land (Josh.24:14), so must the Christian be "immersed" in water to signify leaving the old for the new. The word "Water" is implied by the Greek word "baptizo". If immersion in something else is meant, the text will clearly say so.

I would have to disagree. if there is water in the text then its water . There is no mention of water so its easy to understand. Its clearly the Holy Spirit . col 2.12
Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
Rom 8:11

But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

And Noah did not get wet either . As the water would have killed him .

I understand your train of thought. You have an argument. Here are my objections.

1. Being immersed in water is always for death. That is the context of Romans 6.
2. The "raising" is not resurrection, but an intrinsic ability to overcome the sin-nature
3. Being immersed in the Holy Spirit is for power to serve (Act.1:8), not power to overcome sin
4. Romans 8:11 concerns the DEAD BODY. The resurrection is in view here, not an intrinsic ability to be dead to sin in a living body
5. Colossians 2:10-12 contrasts circumcision of the flesh made with hands with a replacement for circumcision - Baptism. This has to do with Abraham's Covenant. The main aspects of this Covenant was (i) owning the earth (Rom.4:13), and (ii) possessing the Gates of God's enemies (Gen.22:17). The context is, in verse 10, to be "complete IN Him" in respect of the "principalities and powers" while we are still alive. These are the enemies in this age (Eph.6:12). For this quest, in Abraham's time, cutting off at the seat of pleasure was the sign needed. In our age, since Christ, the cutting off of the whole body is a requirement for this battle. That is why the Kingodm is had by "taken up your cross daily".

Finally, just as you find no "water" in Romans Chapter 6, so also is the "spirit" never mentioned. What must be valid for your argument must be equally valid for mine.

You have to decide. Is Romans 6 talking about DEATH, in which case the death waters that immersed the earth at Noah's time, and Pharaoh's armies at the Red Sea speak of WATER so that EVIL may be overcome? Or is Romans Chapter 6 talking of being immersed in the Holy Spirit for power to preach the gospel. Last, but not least, if Romans Chapter 6 talks of being immersed in the Holy Spirit, how then is DEATH administered? Is the "Life-Giving Spirit" of 1st Corinthians 15:45 also the "DEATH-GIVING Spirit"?

Thanks for an interesting exchange.

9Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
I'm taking this literally . Just as it was literal for Jesus . Verse 9 is something we need to 'reckon 'as true for us also . When we 'recieve 'the atonement. This reality becomes our reality .
I come back to observation. Where no 'water 'is mention we should not think 'water '. Any one who reads this with out any theological baggage is not going to think 'water 'when they read theses verses . Neither should we . Camberlites ( Aka 'The Lords navy ) and other such groups put water where there is no water . It really is this simple . Water mentioned = Water baptism . This simple hermeneutic helps us observe the text correctly without loading onto the text certain denominational baggage .

Do you have a verse which says 'sin nature' ?
For by one Spirit are we all BAPTISED INTO one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. 1cor12.13

Water in Baptist ( water baptism WB ) literally touches the body . Noah was prevented from touching the water that killed everyone else and everything ( almost ) Noah and the world wide flood is a dreadful example of 'water baptism '.

////The "raising" is not resurrection, but an intrinsic ability to overcome the sin-nature/// ok try reading without ' water ' in your mind .
God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized( no water) into Jesus Christ were baptized( no water ) into his death?
4Therefore we are buried( no water ) with him by baptism( no water ) into death: that like as Christ was RAISED up FROM THE DEAD by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5¶For if we have been planted (perhaps we are shrubs) ( no water ) together in the likeness of his DEATH we shall be also in the likeness of his RESURRECTION
6Knowing this, that our old man is CRUCIFIED with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7For he that is DEAD is freed from sin.
8Now if , we be DEAD with Christ, we believe that we shall also LIVE with him:
9Knowing that Christ being RAISED from the DEAD dieth no more; DEATH hath no more dominion over him."
This is definitely talking about the resurrection.

Gal 2.20 19For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
20I am CRUCIFIED WITH Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

The Holy Spirit does the immersion into the body . The life giving spirit . We become united in the likeness of his death when we recieve the atonement./ Christ / Holy Spirit ect

Noah was not the subject of the Great Flood. The earth was. But Noah was saved BY water (1st Pet.3:20). The old world was submerged and Noah could come out of the Ark on a New Earth (2nd Pet.3.5-6). I don't think that Noah was buried by the Holy Spirit and then raised in the newness of life.

I didn't say Noah was 'subject' of the Worldwide flood .
" Noah was saved by water " ?? really ? well I guess all those years building that big old Ark was a waste of time then ? I pretty sure he was saved from drowning and being smashed to pieces by the water by the Ark and God sealing the door shut safely with all aboard . Protecting them from the dangerous water that was killing everything else. As an aside the future destruction as by Fire ( not water then ) , no one will be saved by the fire . Just like the water killed . The fire will kill and destroy .

As I said, water is IMPLIED. The Greek is "immersed as dyeing a garment". Lets do the same exercise with that. Romans 6:1-11;

1 "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were immersed as dyeing a garment into Jesus Christ were immersed as dyeing a garment into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by immersion as dyeing a garment into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord."

The whole exercise of the "immersion" is to bury and kill the old man. The "immersion" into the Holy Spirit is to obtain power for service. Now let us take your view and insert it into Romans 6:1-11;

1 "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are immersed into the Holy Spirit, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were immersed into the Holy Spirit into Jesus Christ were immersed into the Holy Spirit into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by immersion into the Holy Spirit into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord."

It is immediately clear that far from being a source of power for service, the Holy Spirit becomes the agent of death. Take the absurdity of verse 2, "God forbid. How shall we, that are immersed into the Holy Spirit, live any longer therein?" Are we immersed into the Holy Spirit to die and then NOT CONTINUE IN THE SPIRIT?