The End, the A.C., Revelation and the rest of it.
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But how do you know unless you test it yourself? Or are we to trust the scholars on this?
1 Thess 5:19 Do not stifle the Holy Spirit.
(Example: but everything that I have ever learned about eschatology man has taught me.)
1 Thess 5:20 Do not ignore prophesy
(Example: oh I've been told this hasn't happened yet so I pay little to no attention to it)
1 Thess 5:21 but test everything that is said. Hold on to what is good.
(Example: But I have always heard and been told that the mark of the beast is not here yet. So, therefore, I know the first bowl of wrath didn't happen yet)
1 Thess 5:19 Do not stifle the Holy Spirit.
(Example: but everything that I have ever learned about eschatology man has taught me.)
1 Thess 5:20 Do not ignore prophesy
(Example: oh I've been told this hasn't happened yet so I pay little to no attention to it)
1 Thess 5:21 but test everything that is said. Hold on to what is good.
(Example: But I have always heard and been told that the mark of the beast is not here yet. So, therefore, I know the first bowl of wrath didn't happen yet)
The nation Israel is has been blinded. The 144,000 is a specific group elected by God during the end times. As I said, the unbelieving nation of Israel will be giving birth to 144,000 believing Israelites.
God symbolically described Israel using the same symbols found in Joseph's dream in order to give the reader understanding of who the woman is symbolically representing.
* The woman is symbolic
* Her being pregnant is symbolic
* Her giving birth is symbolic
* The dragon with seven heads, ten horns and ten crowns is symbolic
symbolism representing what is literal
I'll stick with the clues that God gave, which is Genesis 37:9-10 where the sun, moon and eleven stars, as being the same symbolism as the woman who is clothed with the Son, with the moon under feet and wearing a crown of twelve stars.
Jacob identified the sun as himself, the moon representing his wife/wives and the stars representing his sons. Collectively, they represent Israel.
Correct! Israel never travailed in the birth of 144,000, but her giving birth to the 144,000 is a future event, not past.[/QUOTE]
Well thank you for a comprehensive answer. I have noted your points. Rather than rebut you sentence for sentence, I will just lay forth the way I see it, and we can compare notes.
From Adam to Nimrod, there was one people on earth. From Nimrod to Abraham, God had "the Nations". From Jacob to Jesus Christ, God raised up a select Nation - Israel. So the earth has "the Nations" and "the Nation of Israel" - two peoples. From resurrection day (Jn.20:22) God raised up a "New corporate Man" from a few of Israel and a few of the Nations called, "the Church". The earth then had THREE different peoples. The Book of Revelation is so named because it concerns the events surrounding the REVEALING of Jesus from Heaven at the end of this age. Thus, the fate of all three peoples on earth is shown.
The proofs that these two groups are different are numerous. I will forego them now, but can show them in a later posting if you so require.
Go well bro.
God symbolically described Israel using the same symbols found in Joseph's dream in order to give the reader understanding of who the woman is symbolically representing.
* The woman is symbolic
* Her being pregnant is symbolic
* Her giving birth is symbolic
* The dragon with seven heads, ten horns and ten crowns is symbolic
symbolism representing what is literal
I'll stick with the clues that God gave, which is Genesis 37:9-10 where the sun, moon and eleven stars, as being the same symbolism as the woman who is clothed with the Son, with the moon under feet and wearing a crown of twelve stars.
Jacob identified the sun as himself, the moon representing his wife/wives and the stars representing his sons. Collectively, they represent Israel.
Correct! Israel never travailed in the birth of 144,000, but her giving birth to the 144,000 is a future event, not past.[/QUOTE]
Well thank you for a comprehensive answer. I have noted your points. Rather than rebut you sentence for sentence, I will just lay forth the way I see it, and we can compare notes.
From Adam to Nimrod, there was one people on earth. From Nimrod to Abraham, God had "the Nations". From Jacob to Jesus Christ, God raised up a select Nation - Israel. So the earth has "the Nations" and "the Nation of Israel" - two peoples. From resurrection day (Jn.20:22) God raised up a "New corporate Man" from a few of Israel and a few of the Nations called, "the Church". The earth then had THREE different peoples. The Book of Revelation is so named because it concerns the events surrounding the REVEALING of Jesus from Heaven at the end of this age. Thus, the fate of all three peoples on earth is shown.
- The Nations, or "the Gentiles" ruled the earth until Joshua, and after a brief interlude of less than a thousand years, in which Israel stood invincible, the Gentiles continued to rule from Nebuchadnezzar to the Beast of Revelation. At Armageddon their sovereignty ends and they will be subjugated by a military defeat followed by "the rule of the rod of iron."
- Israel broke the Law and were ejected from their Land. In 70 AD they came under God's chastisement which will run until the Church is complete (Act.15:14-16), and the Gentiles are defeated (Dan.2:44). Israel's restoration is tied to the Covenant with Abraham, and their recovery is set in the Covenant of Law in Deuteronomy 30:1-5. For this recovery, God keeps for Himself a REMNANT. This remnant is predicted in Romans 9 and 11. The 144,000 of Revelation 7 is this Remnant. They are sealed because there is no escape from the horror of the Great Tribulation. But because the fulfill Deuteronomy 30:1-5, Israel is restored legally by a just God. They are not removed from earth and are seen in Revelation 12 as "those that keep the commandments of God".
- The Church is given every benefit to be "salt, light" and Christ's testimony on earth. The letters of the New Testament show diverse problems in the Churches. By latest 96 AD, when Revelation is written, seven representative Churches show that it is largely apostate. But for His name's sake, God keeps a REMNANT called "the Overcomers". They are seen in Revelation 12 as "the Man-child." There are about 5 proofs that they are the Man-child. To save a long posting, I give two. (i) The events of Revelation 12 are set when Satan is cast out of heaven and "has but a little time left" - that is, at the close of the age. (ii) The Man-child is to rule the Nations with a rod of iron (v.5). Only two parties in the whole Bible do that - Christ (Rev.19:15) and the Overcomers (Rev.2:27). Not one fact of the description of the birth of the Man-Child fits our Lord Jesus. They are the Overcomers who are Raptured to the throne. It even says so in verse 11. The "Remainder" of Christians must pass through the Great Tribulation as those "who have the testimony of Jesus Christ" (v.18). The Overcomers of Revelation 14 are that company of 144,000 "redeemed from among men" and "redeemed from the earth". All indications are that they are connected with Jesus.
The proofs that these two groups are different are numerous. I will forego them now, but can show them in a later posting if you so require.
Go well bro.
On the contrary, Israel are only called the firstfruits as a complete nation in the wilderness (Jer.2:3). ALL Israel is meant - not a remnant of 144,000 and excluding Dan.
Rather, Christians are - 1st Cor.16:15 & Jas.1.18. Added go this, the events before us occur at the end of the age, not in the wilderness of Sinai. The harvest of the end of the age is for "Wheat" - which are Christians (Matt.13:39, Jn.12:24). Israel - the Vine, produced NO fruit (Matt.21).
Rather, Christians are - 1st Cor.16:15 & Jas.1.18. Added go this, the events before us occur at the end of the age, not in the wilderness of Sinai. The harvest of the end of the age is for "Wheat" - which are Christians (Matt.13:39, Jn.12:24). Israel - the Vine, produced NO fruit (Matt.21).
Perhaps you fail to comprehend the unique situation that is the Tribulation period.
-The church per se has been raptured, seen in Rev 4, 5 etc. They are absolutely unique.
-There only remain on the earth gentiles and Israelites.
-God reestablishes the original mandate of Israel by making them (two witnesses +144,000) preachers of the gospel during the period of the tribulation.
-There is a zero mention of the Church or the Church preaching. Israel has taken over the task of preaching
-The Church per se no longer exists on the earth therefore their mandate has been completed
-The tribulation saints are a unique group of gentiles who have believed the two witnesses and 144,000. They suffer execution virtually immediately after believing by beheading.
-Rev chapter 7 makes it crystal-clear that the 144,000 are indeed Israelites and Israelites alone
A critical and unbroken rule in scripture is that Church is never called Israel or an Israelite.
When the Bible says Israel or Israelite it always means the offspring of Jacob. Always.
-The church per se has been raptured, seen in Rev 4, 5 etc. They are absolutely unique.
-There only remain on the earth gentiles and Israelites.
-God reestablishes the original mandate of Israel by making them (two witnesses +144,000) preachers of the gospel during the period of the tribulation.
-There is a zero mention of the Church or the Church preaching. Israel has taken over the task of preaching
-The Church per se no longer exists on the earth therefore their mandate has been completed
-The tribulation saints are a unique group of gentiles who have believed the two witnesses and 144,000. They suffer execution virtually immediately after believing by beheading.
-Rev chapter 7 makes it crystal-clear that the 144,000 are indeed Israelites and Israelites alone
A critical and unbroken rule in scripture is that Church is never called Israel or an Israelite.
When the Bible says Israel or Israelite it always means the offspring of Jacob. Always.
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Wrong:
The true Christian Ecclesia is Israel.
Those believers who love the Lord and keep His commandments, that is: every faithful Christian person are designated by God to be Israelites. Galatians 6:14-16 The New Testament writings are clear: there is only one Israel, who are the only one Church, only one elect, be they Jew or Gentile by birth.
1/ Israel, the chosen people of God: Exodus 15:13, Deuteronomy 33:3, Ezra 3:11
Christians, chosen of God: Romans 9:25, Ephesians 5:1, Col. 3:12, 1 John 3:1, Rev. 7:9
2/ Israel, the children of God: Deut. 14:1, Isaiah 1:2-4, Isaiah 63:8, Hosea 11:1
Christians, the children of God: John 1:12, Romans 8:14-16, Galatians 4:5-7, 1 John 3:1
3/ Israel, the scattered sheep of God: Psalms 78:52, Isaiah 40:11, Jer. 23:1-4, Ezekiel 34:12
Christians, His sheep: among the nations: John 10:14-16, Hebrews 13:20, 1 Peter 2:25
4/ Israel, God’s household: Hebrews 3:5, 1 Chronicles 29:14-18
Christians are God’s household: Hebrews 3:6, Hebrews 10:20-21, I Timothy 3:15, 1 Cor.3:9
5/ Israel are the priests of God: Exodus 19:6, Deuteronomy 27:9
Christians are the priests of God: Isaiah 66:21, 1 Peter 2:5-9, Rev. 1:6, Revelation 5:10
6/ Israel is the bride of God: Isaiah 54:5-6, Jeremiah 2:2, Ezekiel 16:32, Hosea 1:2
Christians are the bride of Christ: Isaiah 62:4-5, 2 Corinthians 11:2, Ephesians 5:29-32
7/ Israel is the vine and the olive tree: Isaiah 5:7, Hosea 9:10, Hosea 14:6-7
Christians are the vine and the olive: Luke 20:16, Romans 11:24
8/ Israelites are the circumcised: Genesis 17:9-14, Judges 15:18
Christians are the ‘circumcised’: Romans 2:25-29, Philippians 3:3, Col. 2:11
9/ Israelites are the children of Abraham: 2 Chronicles 20:7, Psalms 105:5-6, Isaiah 41:8
Christians are the spiritual children of Abraham: Romans 4:13-18, Gal. 3:7& 29, John 4:23
10/ The Covenant is with Israel: Deuteronomy 4:31, 2 Kings 17:34-36, Psalms 105:7-10
The New Covenant is with Christians: 1 Corinthians 11:25, Hebrews 8:6-10, Ezekiel 34:25
The above 10 proofs totally negate any argument that the Church and Israel are 2 separate entities. That premise is held and promoted by the pre-trib rapture exponents, who must have 2 groups; one removed to heaven, [themselves] and the Jews, [wrongly called; Israel] who remain on earth to face the Great Tribulation.
The truth is proven by how it is all the faithful Christian believers of every tribe, race, nation and language: Revelation 5:9-10 & 7:9, who gather in the holy Land soon after the Sixth Seal judgement/punishment of the nations. Habakkuk 3:12 They will be assigned to an appropriate Israelite tribe, according to each family’s characteristics. Proved by Isaiah 66:21 Then the 144,000 will be selected, 12,000 from each tribe, to go out and proclaim the coming Kingdom of Jesus. Revelation 14:1-7, Isaiah 66:19
This new nation in the Middle East, will be called Beulah; Isaiah 62:1-5 They will live in peace and prosperity and when a large army comes down from the North, God will destroy it. Ezekiel 38-39, Joel 2:20
Sometime later, the President of the One World Government will come to Beulah and convince ‘many’ of them to sign a seven year treaty of peace. Daniel 11:27, Isaiah 28:14-15 This marks the commencement of the final seven years of this age and is the 70th ‘week of Daniel 9:24, then at the mid-point, the O.W.G. dictator will invade and conquer Beulah. Zech. 14:1-2, Daniel 11:30-32, which triggers the Great Tribulation of the seven Trumpet and seven Bowl punishments. Rev. 12:7-13
But those Christian Israelites who ‘faithful to their God’, will be taken to a place of safety, as described in Revelation 12:14. Then at the Return of Jesus, those faithful ones, the righteous ‘woman’ of Christian Israel will experience a ‘rapture’ as they are gathered by the Lord’s angels. Matthew 24:31 They will join the resurrected saints and will enjoy the great blessings of the Millennium. Isaiah 65:17-25 [79 scriptures]
Ref; logostelos.info
The true Christian Ecclesia is Israel.
Those believers who love the Lord and keep His commandments, that is: every faithful Christian person are designated by God to be Israelites. Galatians 6:14-16 The New Testament writings are clear: there is only one Israel, who are the only one Church, only one elect, be they Jew or Gentile by birth.
1/ Israel, the chosen people of God: Exodus 15:13, Deuteronomy 33:3, Ezra 3:11
Christians, chosen of God: Romans 9:25, Ephesians 5:1, Col. 3:12, 1 John 3:1, Rev. 7:9
2/ Israel, the children of God: Deut. 14:1, Isaiah 1:2-4, Isaiah 63:8, Hosea 11:1
Christians, the children of God: John 1:12, Romans 8:14-16, Galatians 4:5-7, 1 John 3:1
3/ Israel, the scattered sheep of God: Psalms 78:52, Isaiah 40:11, Jer. 23:1-4, Ezekiel 34:12
Christians, His sheep: among the nations: John 10:14-16, Hebrews 13:20, 1 Peter 2:25
4/ Israel, God’s household: Hebrews 3:5, 1 Chronicles 29:14-18
Christians are God’s household: Hebrews 3:6, Hebrews 10:20-21, I Timothy 3:15, 1 Cor.3:9
5/ Israel are the priests of God: Exodus 19:6, Deuteronomy 27:9
Christians are the priests of God: Isaiah 66:21, 1 Peter 2:5-9, Rev. 1:6, Revelation 5:10
6/ Israel is the bride of God: Isaiah 54:5-6, Jeremiah 2:2, Ezekiel 16:32, Hosea 1:2
Christians are the bride of Christ: Isaiah 62:4-5, 2 Corinthians 11:2, Ephesians 5:29-32
7/ Israel is the vine and the olive tree: Isaiah 5:7, Hosea 9:10, Hosea 14:6-7
Christians are the vine and the olive: Luke 20:16, Romans 11:24
8/ Israelites are the circumcised: Genesis 17:9-14, Judges 15:18
Christians are the ‘circumcised’: Romans 2:25-29, Philippians 3:3, Col. 2:11
9/ Israelites are the children of Abraham: 2 Chronicles 20:7, Psalms 105:5-6, Isaiah 41:8
Christians are the spiritual children of Abraham: Romans 4:13-18, Gal. 3:7& 29, John 4:23
10/ The Covenant is with Israel: Deuteronomy 4:31, 2 Kings 17:34-36, Psalms 105:7-10
The New Covenant is with Christians: 1 Corinthians 11:25, Hebrews 8:6-10, Ezekiel 34:25
The above 10 proofs totally negate any argument that the Church and Israel are 2 separate entities. That premise is held and promoted by the pre-trib rapture exponents, who must have 2 groups; one removed to heaven, [themselves] and the Jews, [wrongly called; Israel] who remain on earth to face the Great Tribulation.
The truth is proven by how it is all the faithful Christian believers of every tribe, race, nation and language: Revelation 5:9-10 & 7:9, who gather in the holy Land soon after the Sixth Seal judgement/punishment of the nations. Habakkuk 3:12 They will be assigned to an appropriate Israelite tribe, according to each family’s characteristics. Proved by Isaiah 66:21 Then the 144,000 will be selected, 12,000 from each tribe, to go out and proclaim the coming Kingdom of Jesus. Revelation 14:1-7, Isaiah 66:19
This new nation in the Middle East, will be called Beulah; Isaiah 62:1-5 They will live in peace and prosperity and when a large army comes down from the North, God will destroy it. Ezekiel 38-39, Joel 2:20
Sometime later, the President of the One World Government will come to Beulah and convince ‘many’ of them to sign a seven year treaty of peace. Daniel 11:27, Isaiah 28:14-15 This marks the commencement of the final seven years of this age and is the 70th ‘week of Daniel 9:24, then at the mid-point, the O.W.G. dictator will invade and conquer Beulah. Zech. 14:1-2, Daniel 11:30-32, which triggers the Great Tribulation of the seven Trumpet and seven Bowl punishments. Rev. 12:7-13
But those Christian Israelites who ‘faithful to their God’, will be taken to a place of safety, as described in Revelation 12:14. Then at the Return of Jesus, those faithful ones, the righteous ‘woman’ of Christian Israel will experience a ‘rapture’ as they are gathered by the Lord’s angels. Matthew 24:31 They will join the resurrected saints and will enjoy the great blessings of the Millennium. Isaiah 65:17-25 [79 scriptures]
Ref; logostelos.info
Bolshevism at work, as in Scripture "and I saw another beast..." first he saw one rise from the sea and after it one rose from the earth. The ones who worked/work to bring it forth are those who say "let us make an image..." they say "I got me this kingdom" as if they forgot who makes kingdoms and kings.
British is Israelism is a heresy. The 10 lost tribes is a heresy as well. Declaring that the Church is Israel is also a heresy (though a remnant of Israel become Christians). Israelites are the sons of Jacob always were always will be.
It is possible (during the Church age) for a Israelite to repent and convert and become a Christian, but it is never possible for a gentile to convert and become an Israelite.
It is possible (during the Church age) for a Israelite to repent and convert and become a Christian, but it is never possible for a gentile to convert and become an Israelite.
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Isaiah 56:7, “Them I shall bring to My set-apart mountain, and let them rejoice in My house of prayer. Their ascending offerings and their sacrifices are accepted on My altar, for My house is called a house of prayer for all the peoples.”
Amos 9:11-12,11 “In that day I shall raise up the Booth of Dawiḏ which has fallen down. And I shall repair its breaches and raise up its ruins. And I shall build it as in the days of old,"12 so that they possess the remnant of Eḏom, and all the nations on whom My Name is called,” declares יהוה who does this."
Isaiah 45:22-25, “Turn to Me and be saved, all you ends of the earth! For I am Mighty, and there is none else. I have sworn by Myself, a word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, so that to Me every knee shall bow, every tongue swear. One shall say, ‘Only in יהוה do I have righteousness and strength’ – he comes to Him. And all those displeased with Him shall be put to shame. In יהוה all the seed of Yisra’yl shall be declared right and glory.”
Exodus 12:48-49, “And when a stranger sojourns with you and shall perform the Pĕsaḥ to יהוה, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and perform it, and he shall be as a native of the land. But let no uncircumcised eat of it. “There is one Torah for the native-born and for the stranger who sojourns among you.”
Numbers 15:15-16, “One law is for you of the assembly and for the stranger who sojourns with you – a law forever throughout your generations. As you are, so is the stranger before יהוה. One Torah and one right-ruling is for you and for the stranger who sojourns with you.”
Zephaniah 3:8-9, “Therefore wait for Me,” declares יהוה, “until the day I rise up for plunder. For My judgment is to gather nations, to assemble reigns, to pour out on them My rage, all My burning wrath. For by the fire of My jealousy all the earth shall be consumed."3:9, "“For then I shall turn unto the peoples a clean language so that they all call on the Name of יהוה, to serve Him with one shoulder.”
Leviticus 19:34, "‘Let the stranger who dwells among you be to you as the native among you, and you shall love him as yourself. For you were strangers in the land of Mitsrayim. I am יהוה your Strength."
יִשְׂרָאֵל
Amos 9:11-12,11 “In that day I shall raise up the Booth of Dawiḏ which has fallen down. And I shall repair its breaches and raise up its ruins. And I shall build it as in the days of old,"12 so that they possess the remnant of Eḏom, and all the nations on whom My Name is called,” declares יהוה who does this."
Isaiah 45:22-25, “Turn to Me and be saved, all you ends of the earth! For I am Mighty, and there is none else. I have sworn by Myself, a word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, so that to Me every knee shall bow, every tongue swear. One shall say, ‘Only in יהוה do I have righteousness and strength’ – he comes to Him. And all those displeased with Him shall be put to shame. In יהוה all the seed of Yisra’yl shall be declared right and glory.”
Exodus 12:48-49, “And when a stranger sojourns with you and shall perform the Pĕsaḥ to יהוה, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and perform it, and he shall be as a native of the land. But let no uncircumcised eat of it. “There is one Torah for the native-born and for the stranger who sojourns among you.”
Numbers 15:15-16, “One law is for you of the assembly and for the stranger who sojourns with you – a law forever throughout your generations. As you are, so is the stranger before יהוה. One Torah and one right-ruling is for you and for the stranger who sojourns with you.”
Zephaniah 3:8-9, “Therefore wait for Me,” declares יהוה, “until the day I rise up for plunder. For My judgment is to gather nations, to assemble reigns, to pour out on them My rage, all My burning wrath. For by the fire of My jealousy all the earth shall be consumed."3:9, "“For then I shall turn unto the peoples a clean language so that they all call on the Name of יהוה, to serve Him with one shoulder.”
Leviticus 19:34, "‘Let the stranger who dwells among you be to you as the native among you, and you shall love him as yourself. For you were strangers in the land of Mitsrayim. I am יהוה your Strength."
יִשְׂרָאֵל