Not By Works

I think the real misunderstanding is the failure to comprehend the will and power of God.
As if He was lacking in these attributes......as far as salvation is concerned.

Just thinking out loud.

verse 13

B. predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, seems predestination is after salvation.
God bless

okay. thanks

I am kind of in the middle here, so there are things I will disagree with on both sides. I will say here that I do not believe man’s rejection of God’s Grace if offered to all harms His Sovereignty. Those are the vessel He endured with much long suffering, fitted for destruction. There is a compatibility between man’s responsibility and Gods sovereignty.

There is a variant meaning to the Greek word there. It can also be translated “take”. It is not the usual word rendered “choose”.

I believe that God has known who are His from eternity past. And God predestinates people before they’re born.

We all must agree those are some magnificent passages.

2Thess 2:13-15
But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.

There is every reason to believe that being chosen/election is the driving force and reason for what follows.......belief.

Please note that Paul is thanking God for the belief that the Thessalonians now possess.
Paul is NOT thanking the Thessalonians for their faith, their believing and their works.

It is self evident that God Himself is taking the initiative in doing the works here.

The thing is, the doctrine of election as I have stated it is much older than the reformation. I say that so no one will think I broke the promise I made earlier.

The “ please note” part is a winner.

I absolutely agree. There is a compatibility, a synthesis, a synchronicity going on here.

However to abandon election and God's will in the matter is foolhardy and unscriptural.
I've said it before and I'll say it again God's election is boilerplate doctrine.

I think everyone here can agree that no one in the history of theology and Christianity has nailed the door shut on these issues.

Oh I concur. The reformers corrected the mistakes made along the way. It's not as if they invented something new that's for sure.

Yes Augustine... his error to combat the error of Pelaguis.

Yes the apostle Paul to correct the error of the Jews.

Before him too...

Cv5, do you think the statement below is unsound doctrinally, or would you agree in part or in whole? Let me know

On further reflection, I think there is a sense where corporate election is true. And also individual election is true.

The Jews were promised the land and were given the oracles of God because of the promise God made to the Patriarchs, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. They were beneficiaries to the immutable promises God made to the Patriarchs. Immutable in that they had a certain fulfillment, but the ultimate fulfillment and continued fulfillment would only be received by those who were not only children according to geneology, but also children according to the faith of Abraham

Just as the promises to the Jews were certain due to the immutable promises God made to Abraham and Isaac and Jacob, and their identification with Him, the promises of the New Covenant with a better hope, a better Mediator, better promises, a better land, etc are granted and certain to us who believe because of our identification and union with Christ.

Chosen in Him

But it is also a personal election because the Lord from eternity has known who are His, and He has loved us as individuals from everlasting to everlasting and predestinated us to be an adoption and to be conformed to the image of Christ before we were born, even before the earth’s foundation

Ie. Foreknowledge.

I absolutely and unapologetically despise wolves in sheep’s clothing. No doubt the next thing you’re going to say is that I’m a racist. That’s what opponents do when losing a debate. 😉

I am thankful for the imputed righteousness of Christ. Praise God for His Grace.

Oh! If only...

Condemning criticisms of individuals on this board. The moderators have rules.
I do however have opinions you know. Which I am free to express correct?
Freedom of speech and all that.