Looking for the Ephraimites, scattered among the Gentiles, since their Assyrian captivity of 740BC

All men who want to promote their own ideas mus use the same excuse. That is; "God did not mean what He said". You say; "ALL Israel is only a fraction". God says ALL ISRAEL. In Romans 9 Paul starts the discussion by defining an Israelite. We pick up in Romans 9:3-5;

3 "For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen."

In verse 3 going into 4, Paul's brethren and KINSMEN according to the flesh are Israelites. Now you have to decide. Who received the Covenants? Who received the Law? Who received the Promises. Judah???? Benjamin??? I think not. THE TWELVE TRIBES!!! And if you are still trying to decide, the "Israelites" came from the FATHERS (plural).

And this is the theme of Romans 9 to 11. It is an answer to the first eight Chapters which show that ALL men, Jew and Gentile, are concluded under sin, with Israel worse than the Gentiles because they already knew God and then murdered His Son - Jesus. The logical question then is; "Is there any hope for Israel after this terrible record over nearly 1,600 years?" So Paul builds a case for their restoration, not because Israel deserve it, but because God made PROMISES. God's reputation is at stake. The three Chapter are a carefully built case for God's judicial right to have mercy on Israel. AND THE ISRAEL MEANT IS THE TOTALITY OF JACOB'S SEED - ALL ISRAEL.

You have, without an ounce of proof, ASSUMED that saved Gentiles are from the ten northern Tribes. Your verses do not show this at all. I could enter into argument about them, but I don't think it would help. For instance, the TWO mentioned in Hebrews 8 are defined. They are ALL those who God took by the hand to bring out of Egypt! It is the Covenant of LAW that is to be replaced. And it is with the SONS OF THE TWELVE TRIBES. It is the FATHERS (plural). I do not have those who came out of Israel as my fathers (plural). I have ONE Father - Jehovah. I do not have Moses and his 613 Laws. The LAWS (not the Covenant) have been abolished FOR ME AND ANY JEW WHO CONVERTS TO CHRIST by being nailed to the cross WITH CHRIST (Eph.2:15).

And in Acts 15 the conference decide that the Gentile believers must follow NOTHING of the Law. What is recorded here is the Covenant with NOAH! But something else is evident in Acts 15:19. The Believers, the Disciples at Jerusalem were turning back to the Law themselves. And what happens when you read what Moses received on the mount??? A VEIL!!! (2nd Cor.3:14-15). Their veiled intellect is shown in that they were not clear on food "polluted by idols". Paul, to who is given the mystery of the Church, says in 1st Corinthians 8 that we MAY eat food dedicated to idols as long as there are no weak Christians around. Peter, James and co were "weak Christians".

All I can say is that you do not have a single argument on which to support your amazing claims. Every scriptre you have brought does not, by any means, support your theory. If you are of the Tribe of Judah you are as much an Israelite as a Danite. If you have believed in, and confessed Jesus with your mouth, you are a NEW MAN and your past - what ever it was - is GONE (2nd Cor.5:17). If you still adhere to the Law of Moses, you have deeply insulted God, His Son Jesus and the monumental work of that Son. You are fallen from grace and have made Christ "of none effect" (Gal.5:4).

You have, without an ounce of proof, ASSUMED that saved Gentiles are from the ten northern Tribes. Your verses do not show this at all. ... Paul, to who is given the mystery of the Church, says in 1st Corinthians 8 that we MAY eat food dedicated to idols as long as there are no weak Christians around. Peter, James and co were "weak Christians"..

Where in the world is the Ephraimites

Hebrews 8 (ESV)

8 For he finds fault with them when he says: "Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, 9 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt. For they did not continue in my covenant, and so I showed no concern for them, declares the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 11 And they shall not teach, each one his neighbor and each one his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest. 12 For I will be merciful toward their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more." (by the blood of Christ Yeshua - it may be blasphemous to you, to stress the fact that the new covenant with the house of Israel AND the house of Judah, is by the blood of Christ Yeshua, it is not blasphemous to me) 13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

You have, without an ounce of proof, ASSUMED that saved Gentiles are from the ten northern Tribes.

Read Genesis 48:15-19 and realise that Ephraim became a multitude of nations, ie. became Gentiles among the Gentiles. Gentiles meaning is "the nations".

You have misinterpret my words, and God's verses from his Word, not mine. I did qualify my words, by stating unequivocally that all of Ephraim is among the Christ Yeshua believing Gentiles, following in God's ordinances and laws ( 613 mitzvot ), but not all ( Acts 15 ) Christ Yeshua believing, saved Gentiles are of Ephraim.

Actually, the word "multitude" is better rendered "fullness" - as you will see in a multitiude of literal translations. The meaning is that Ephraim, favored by the Lord, would reach its full number among the nations. You know, and you're not saying, that the reason that Ephraim is sometimes used of the ten northern tribes, is that it was supposed to be the ruling Tribe by Jacob's blessing. Joshua, Jeroboam and his line to Ahab are all Ephraimites and leaders of Israel. The ultimate removal of this high position was because Ephraim followed Jeroboam, not in his kingship, but because he, fearing that he would lose loyalty, stopped the worship being at Jerusalem. But this does not stop Ephraim being the most prominent Tribe and thus his name is used (sometimes) to depict the ten northern Tribes. What you ignored though, was that Genesis 48:15-19 does not address Ephraim as representing the ten northern Tribes. It addresses Jacob's blessing on the MAN Ephraim, and, ultimately his TRIBE.

But what is ominous is that you could not say one word about my posting that you quoted. I've seen this phenomena over the years. Men and women who hold strange doctrines, when faced with the pure word of God, without additions and subtractions, just ignore it. When called to task about it, or when comment becomes unavoidable, they allegorize it or say that it means something else.

I personally think that you are set on a course, and you will not change it no matter how good the counter arguments are. You read Moses and thus you have a Veil over your mind. When a man is faced with the truth and does not embrace it, God Himself darkens the mind (Rom.1:18-21). But I thank you for the exchange because it gives the rest of us a chance to view both sides of the argument.

I don't know what your point is. The promise made in the old testment is fulfilled in the church
The book of Hebrews (with no verifiable authorship) was left in the bible as part of scripture because it had been so widely accepted
by the Jewish commuity. It is written to the Jews to explain this new covenant.

You may think lowly of Peter, however Christ Yeshua our Lord and Saviour, entrusted his the foundations of his Church, his Body of Christ to Peter, NOT TO PAUL. And Peter warns of those that twist the great Paul's words, to suit their own lawlessness, and Peter warns that we should not follow suit, lest to loose our own stability.

Matthew 16:15-19


Acts 15:7-11


2 Peter 3 :10-18


The law is not abolished under the new covenant. Under the new covenant of grace, we are no longer in servitude to laws written on stone tablets under the law, but God's laws are written on our free will hearts and minds:


Hebrews 8:10

Paul obeyed God's laws, and brought his specified offering to the temple:

Acts 21:26

Thank you for your reply. Again, you have given me the chance to set things as they should be. The "Rock" ("petra") in Matthew 16:15-19 is the revelation of Christ - not Peter. "Peter" ("petros") means "a piece of rock". And so it is in the New Testament. Christ is THE foundation of the "BUILDING" - the Church (1st Cor.3:11) and we, "living and precious stones" are built on this foundation of Christ (1st Pet.2:1-5). But in Ephesians 2, the subject is getting the New Man in Commonwealth with Israel for the blessings of Abraham. There, the matter is not the Church but INHERITANCE of the earth. So, it pertaining to the INHERITANCE, is built on a different foundation with Christ as the Corner-Stone. Lastly, because Israel refused the Kingdom (Matt.21:43), in the consummation of God's plans, because it is a Kingdom, only the Apostles are the Foundations. Israel are Gates. That is, the continue their function of serving the Lord as Priests, but have no say in the ruling of the City and the Earth.

I will not answer comprehensively about Paul. You can do it yourself if you follow my pointers. But I expect that you would dismiss it anyway. Paul had no business in Jerusalem. He was the Apostles sent to the Gentiles. Paul knew that he was a New Creature and whatever he had done under Law was washed from God's eyes. He had no business completing a vow made while he was a Pharisee. Paul went "bound in spirit" (Act.20:22), but he knew, and wrote, that "where the Spirit of God was, there was LIBERTY" (2nd Cor.3:17). Paul did not heed the brothers in Tyre in Acts 21:4 "who spoke through the Spirit". And later, in Caesarea, by the mouth of an established Prophet, and under witness of four accredited prophetesses, refused to heed his prophesy. Paul himself wrote, in 1st Corinthians 14 that a prophet was to be tested by other prophets. Agabus did so, and it came to pass. Paul rebelled against his own spirit, the Holy Spirit, against the advise of the Church under the Holy Spirit, and against five accredited prophets. I would not use Paul's rebellion to establish any LAW for the Christian if I were you.

The LAW of Moses is good, spiritual, given by God and "unto LIFE", says Romans Chapter 7. But it is a "PARTITION". It sections off the Jew and the Gentile. Moses forbade Israel to have relations with other Nations. So this "Partition" is good for God's purposes with Israel. But because the New Man would be made out BOTH (Israel and Gentile), the Law as a partition would destroy the unity in the Church (just like it has with you and I). So Christ nails the Law (not the Covenant) to the cross with Him. That is, the law remains for Israel, but is abolished for the New Man. Also, the Law must still be fulfilled by Israel. Chris fulfilled it, but the Covenant is made with Israel. Israel have not fulfilled it yet, so it REMAINS (Matt.5:18). But the Church, the New Man, is, and never was under Covenant of Law. Added to this, Christ fulfilled the Law and the New Man comes out of Christ. So the Law is already fulfilled for them.

If you are an Israelite, you are still under Law - and its curses. If you are IN Christ, you are absolved from the Law. Take your choice. But one thing is sure. Galatians is the most hard and aggressive Book of the New Testament. In it are clear statements that any Christian involving him/herself in the Law, is (i) under curse, (ii) fallen from grace, and (iii) has made the work of Christ of non effect (Gal.3:13, 5:4).

I definitely would not allegorise the prophesies, but take them as literal, with the different groups of people (house of Israel AND house of Judah) very distinct from one another. The way I understand from you, is that you use the terms Jew, Israel, Judah and Ephraim interchangeably as indistinct groups of people - which makes it difficult, if not impossible to follow your discourse and not enabling one to even respond to some of the claims you make (which sometimes refer to another group than the one you seem to discuss).

Distinct groups, to be used not interchangeable, but separate from one another:

1. Ancient United Monarchy of Israel, under king David and Solomon
2. Ancient northern kingdom of Israel, ten northern tribes under the head of the tribe of Ephraim
3. Ancient southern kingdom of Judea, three southern tribes under the head of the tribe of Judah
4. Jews in the time of Christ Yeshua, consisting of the remnant of the ancient southern kingdom of Judea, three southern tribes under the head of the tribe of Judah
5. Scattered house of Israel, consisting of the remnant of the ancient northern kingdom of Israel, ten northern tribes under the head of the tribe of Ephraim, as scattered among all the Gentiles, into the four corners of the world - without any memory of their identity as sons of Jacob later renamed as Israel.
6. Scattered house of Judah, consisting of the remnant of the ancient southern kingdom of Judea, three southern tribes under the head of the tribe of Judah, some still scattered among all the Gentiles, into the four corners of the world - retaining their Judaic / Jewish identity.
7. Renewed re-united house of Israel (of the tribes of Ephraim) and the house of Judah, as Re-united Israel under kingship of Christ Yeshua among the Body of Christ / Messiah.

I think that if you reread my posting, you will see that I interchanged legally. Ephraim is Israel where Israel are the ten northern Tribes and not the united Monarchy under David. But I'm glad you have set forth your beliefs for all to see.

• In point #4, the remnant of the Southern Tribes were NOT under the HEAD of Judah. They were under the headship of Rome with an Edomite Governor. Their religious side was under the illegal headship of Pharisees, who had usurped "Moses' seat"
• In point #5, again the headship in deportation, captivity and ultimate dispersion is Gentile kings
• In point #6 we can almost agree if you leave out Judah's headship. Legal would be a Theocratic Monarchy
• In point #7 Israel and Judah are re-united under the Kingship of Jesus, but NEVER become the Body of Christ. They are His SUBJECTS. You will never se or find any scripture that makes Israel the Body of Christ.

The proof that the majority of the Christian peoples are descended from the ten Northern tribes, is in Matthew 15:24. Jesus said: I was sent to save the lost sheep of the House of Israel....
Simply put: If the Christians are not of the House of Israel, then Jesus failed in His mission.

But we are and the Western Christian nations are the ones who have received the promised Blessings given by Jacob and Moses to those tribes.
This truth is evident and those who deny it; have another agenda to push. That is; the false belief of the Church getting 'raptured to heaven', while the Jews, who are the only Israel according to this theory, remain on earth during the Great Tribulation. Totally wrong and contrary to what the Prophets actually say about the fate of Jewish Israel and the destiny of the true Israelites of God.

Thank you for your reply. Again, you have given me the chance to set things as they should be. The "Rock" ("petra") in Matthew 16:15-19 is the revelation of Christ - not Peter. "Peter" ("petros") means "a piece of rock". And so it is in the New Testament. Christ is THE foundation of the "BUILDING" - the Church (1st Cor.3:11) and we, "living and precious stones" are built on this foundation of Christ (1st Pet.2:1-5). But in Ephesians 2, the subject is getting the New Man in Commonwealth with Israel for the blessings of Abraham. There, the matter is not the Church but INHERITANCE of the earth. So, it pertaining to the INHERITANCE, is built on a different foundation with Christ as the Corner-Stone. Lastly, because Israel refused the Kingdom (Matt.21:43), in the consummation of God's plans, because it is a Kingdom, only the Apostles are the Foundations. Israel are Gates. That is, the continue their function of serving the Lord as Priests, but have no say in the ruling of the City and the Earth.

I will not answer comprehensively about Paul. You can do it yourself if you follow my pointers. But I expect that you would dismiss it anyway. Paul had no business in Jerusalem. He was the Apostles sent to the Gentiles. Paul knew that he was a New Creature and whatever he had done under Law was washed from God's eyes. He had no business completing a vow made while he was a Pharisee. Paul went "bound in spirit" (Act.20:22), but he knew, and wrote, that "where the Spirit of God was, there was LIBERTY" (2nd Cor.3:17). Paul did not heed the brothers in Tyre in Acts 21:4 "who spoke through the Spirit". And later, in Caesarea, by the mouth of an established Prophet, and under witness of four accredited prophetesses, refused to heed his prophesy. Paul himself wrote, in 1st Corinthians 14 that a prophet was to be tested by other prophets. Agabus did so, and it came to pass. Paul rebelled against his own spirit, the Holy Spirit, against the advise of the Church under the Holy Spirit, and against five accredited prophets. I would not use Paul's rebellion to establish any LAW for the Christian if I were you.

The LAW of Moses is good, spiritual, given by God and "unto LIFE", says Romans Chapter 7. But it is a "PARTITION". It sections off the Jew and the Gentile. Moses forbade Israel to have relations with other Nations. So this "Partition" is good for God's purposes with Israel. But because the New Man would be made out BOTH (Israel and Gentile), the Law as a partition would destroy the unity in the Church (just like it has with you and I). So Christ nails the Law (not the Covenant) to the cross with Him. That is, the law remains for Israel, but is abolished for the New Man. Also, the Law must still be fulfilled by Israel. Chris fulfilled it, but the Covenant is made with Israel. Israel have not fulfilled it yet, so it REMAINS (Matt.5:18). But the Church, the New Man, is, and never was under Covenant of Law. Added to this, Christ fulfilled the Law and the New Man comes out of Christ. So the Law is already fulfilled for them.

If you are an Israelite, you are still under Law - and its curses. If you are IN Christ, you are absolved from the Law. Take your choice. But one thing is sure. Galatians is the most hard and aggressive Book of the New Testament. In it are clear statements that any Christian involving him/herself in the Law, is (i) under curse, (ii) fallen from grace, and (iii) has made the work of Christ of non effect (Gal.3:13, 5:4).

Ezekiel 37, which shows in detail the recovery of Israel, shows that Christ's ministry to the lost sheep of Israel is a roaring success. It just didn't happen immediately. That what nearly all the prophets say. According to Acts 15:14-16, God set a time BEFORE the restoration of Israel to gather and train the Church. This time is a time of Israel's chastisement, but it will end.

I personally have found no evidence of "Western Christians" being any different to other Christians. In actual fact, in my travels, I see more faith in the shanties of poverty-stricken Africa that the well manicured suburbs of Texas. Added to this, without reliable figures it cannot be categorically stated, but it seems to me that there are more born again Christians in China than USA. And certainly there is not a single verse pertaining to "Western Christians".

I surely agree with you that the Church is not raptured to heaven. I understood that 1st Thessalonians 4 says that they are "caught away" (lit. Gk.) to the air and the clouds, and that this "upward call" (Phil.3:14) was a PRIZE achieved by very few Overcoming Christians. But a discussion on that would derail the thread, so I'm out of it.

Ezekiel 37, which shows in detail the recovery of Israel, shows that Christ's ministry to the lost sheep of Israel is a roaring success. It just didn't happen immediately. That what nearly all the prophets say. According to Acts 15:14-16, God set a time BEFORE the restoration of Israel to gather and train the Church. This time is a time of Israel's chastisement, but it will end.

I personally have found no evidence of "Western Christians" being any different to other Christians. In actual fact, in my travels, I see more faith in the shanties of poverty-stricken Africa that the well manicured suburbs of Texas. Added to this, without reliable figures it cannot be categorically stated, but it seems to me that there are more born again Christians in China than USA. And certainly there is not a single verse pertaining to "Western Christians". .

I would contend with you that Ephraim, unbeknownst of there Israel identity, is among the Gentile believers in the Church, under Kingship of Christ Yeshua - that part of prophesy is fulfilled.

The following prophesies will still be coming into fulfilment:

1. Ephraim (among the Gentile nations) will be reunited with Judah (among the Jews). As Judah among the Jews is predominantly still in their partial hardening (unlike Ephraim currently among the Gentile nations), this prophesy yet need to come to full fulfilment.
2. Ephraim (currently physically among the Gentile nations) will be reunited in the covenant land of Israel with their brother Judah among the Jews.