The dreaded doctrine of election and perseverance.

No my analogy was just fine . If I ask my children to do something they are UNABLE to do, then I punish them for not doing it . This would make me a dreadful parent.

And do you tell them to do this when they have no idea what it means? No. You teach them how.

A better analogy would be, If I tell my kids to tidy there room, I tell them because it needs to be done, the room is a mess. However, the kids have no desire to tidy the room, they would rather play. So either you have to do something to change their mind or you will have to do the tidying yourself. Since the kids have no such desire, you are perfectly within your rights to punish them.

Thus, God does not force anyone to repent and believe but gives unto His kids the ABILITY to desire what He wants. This is "Regeneration".

No parent has the right to punish his child. We discipline our children in love, for their sake.

I think you will find that Scripture says not to spare the ROD.

But otherwise I don't get your point.

Aaaahhhh, but the key word in this analogy is not the kids ABILITY but their DESIRE.

Are ALL sinners able to believe the Gospel ?

No, God had granted his gracious gift of faith, to whom he so desired, since the foundation of the world. Do a bible search on "foundation of the world", and you will find how God chose his children of faith, since the foundation of the world.

I try avoid my biblical understanding from ' Google ' .

Use a free Bible application, should I help you with that?

My analogy covered that . If I asked my children to do something they were UNABLE to do ,and i punished them for it ,this would make me a dreadful Father .

I did some study of and once was a Calvinists. Further study put me off of Calvinism. I don't think that Calvin would be a Calvinist as it stands today (not that I hold Calvin in any high regard, modern Calvinists are much better; the 85 dead and hundreds exiled from Geneva under his teaching probably would agree with me as to who Calvin was). However a stopped clock is correct twice a day. Calvin had the sovereignty of God correct, and he also had it right that we can not of our own power choose God.
All that being said, one of the greatest teachers of our time was a Calvinist, RC Sproul was an awesome teacher.
I however am neither Calvinist or Arminian.
I guess I should sum up how I see it based on my studies this far, but not in this post.

I see your struggling to handle this discussion from scripture.

Let me help you. I can just hope and pray that you will appreciate my assistance, more than you obviously appreciate the work of people at Google:

1 Peter 1 (ESV)

19 but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot. 20 He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you 21 who through him are believers in God, who raised him from the dead and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

Ephesians 1 (ESV)

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.


Revelation 13 (ESV)

7 Also it was allowed to make war on the saints and to conquer them. And authority was given it over every tribe and people and language and nation, 8 and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.


Matthew 25 (ESV)

34 Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.


John 17 (ESV)

20 "I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, 21 that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, 23 I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me. 24 Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world. 25 O righteous Father, even though the world does not know you, I know you, and these know that you have sent me. 26 I made known to them your name, and I will continue to make it known, that the love with which you have loved me may be in them, and I in them."

Ok I can see this is bringing up some issues aomng each other and I saw the anology of parenting being used so I want to use one as well. God is the first and originally parent he knew knows every hair on our head and knew us before he formed us in the womb
So lets look at this from the view of a parent, you have two children and you have the choice to either send them to heaven or hell.
From election perspective( be warned this gets a bit heavy) Abortion you have a child and before it was even born you decide it's fate it gets to have life you have another child but decide it's fate before it is even born as well it's getting aborted no matter what their decisions they would have made who they could have become you already decided each of their fates one gets to live grow and be molded by you to become the person you wanted them to be but the other you decide to receive death

Neither had any power ability or choice but you are the parent you are the one with authority and you decide what is just or not

From my perspective if I were a parent and had two children I would love them and I would offer them the choice to listen to my instruction and live a good life I see who they could become if they would only listen and accept my instuction to recieve that life, one accepts my instuctions and is saved from a life of destruction they become a morally upright stable and loving person but the other was rebellious and time after time again they kept refusing my instruction and lived according to their own fleshly desires they bcome addicted to alchohal they become drug addicts they are a crude and morally evil person and they end up in prison for life with no bail and that is where they remain for their entire lives

Had they heeded my instuction they could have had life but they refused time and time again I loved them but they willing kept refusing my instruction
Do you know where we get out parental love for our children when they are born? Why when a person who at first didn't want a child but the second they hold them they fall in love with this small thing they are holding? It comes from God he is the poriginal parent and he said in the beginning we would made in his image and he meant this in far more ways than one.

Ok I can see this is bringing up some issues aomng each other and I saw the anology of parenting being used so I want to use one as well. God is the first and originally parent he knew knows every hair on our head and knew us before he formed us in the womb
So lets look at this from the view of a parent, you have two children and you have the choice to either send them to heaven or hell.
From election perspective( be warned this gets a bit heavy) Abortion you have a child and before it was even born you decide it's fate it gets to have life you have another child but decide it's fate before it is even born as well it's getting aborted no matter what their decisions they would have made who they could have become you already decided each of their fates one gets to live grow and be molded by you to become the person you wanted them to be but the other you decide to receive death

Neither had any power ability or choice but you are the parent you are the one with authority and you decide what is just or not

From my perspective if I were a parent and had two children I would love them and I would offer them the choice to listen to my instruction and live a good life I see who they could become if they would only listen and accept my instuction to recieve that life, one accepts my instuctions and is saved from a life of destruction they become a morally upright stable and loving person but the other was rebellious and time after time again they kept refusing my instruction and lived according to their own fleshly desires they bcome addicted to alchohal they become drug addicts they are a crude and morally evil person and they end up in prison for life with no bail and that is where they remain for their entire lives

Had they heeded my instuction they could have had life but they refused time and time again I loved them but they willing kept refusing my instruction
Do you know where we get out parental love for our children when they are born? Why when a person who at first didn't want a child but the second they hold them they fall in love with this small thing they are holding? It comes from God he is the poriginal parent and he said in the beginning we would made in his image and he meant this in far more ways than one.

I'm not sure how serious i should take a Christian who is appealing to Google in a bible discussion?

When you say ' he knew us before he formed us in the womb what do you mean ?

One of the most difficult questions for me, is why did God even bothered creating his fallen son Lucifer, if he knew what destruction he would bring to his creation? But God created good and evil out of nothing, and knew when he created, there will be a fall brought about by Satan / Lucifer, and that he would have to send his first created, firstborn Son, Christ Yeshua to separate all God's sheep from the goats, and to recreate a new heaven and earth, for only his sheep devoid of any evil forever, and banish all evil to the bottomless pit of eternal damnation.

“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born
I set you apart and appointed you as a prophet to the nations.” Jeremiah 1:5