Why it will be a pre-trib rapture and why the rapture takes place.

Here's something I've noticed about prophecy that maybe will resonate with others' study: I've noticed that for prophecies that involve a mass of people (whether a nation or the world) there often seems to be a prophet that experiences a personal fulfillment of that prophecy in his life first, as a "witness" to what the Almighty will do on the larger scale.

Recall the judgment against the houses of Israel and Judah. Ezekiel was commanded to personally experience a fulfillment of the hardship that would happen to the people, a day for a year.

Another example is the Messiah's ministry. He witnessed a personal fulfillment of Israel crossing the red sea, receiving the law and then wandering in the wilderness for 40 years, but his was jordan baptism, receiving the Holy Spirit and then 40 days in the wilderness.

He also personally experienced persecution, death and resurrection saying that a servant isn't greater than his Master; that if they persecuted Him they will persecute and kill his servants...and as he was resurrected on the 3rd day after persecution and death so do his saint wait for the blessed hope of resurrection.

The body must follow the head, right?

Jeremiah 30:7-9 says that Jacob's trouble will end Israel's yoke of other nations and David will be raised up. Neither have happened yet.

The yoke is the yoke between Jacob and Esau from Genesis. Esau represents the first born (unsaved Jews) and Jacob resprents the second born (saved Jews). That yoke was broken when the kingdom was taken from the wicked Jews and given to the saved Jews.

Here's something I've noticed about prophecy that maybe will resonate with others' study: I've noticed that for prophecies that involve a mass of people (whether a nation or the world) there often seems to be a prophet that experiences a personal fulfillment of that prophecy in his life first, as a "witness" to what the Almighty will do on the larger scale.

Recall the judgment against the houses of Israel and Judah. Ezekiel was commanded to personally experience a fulfillment of the hardship that would happen to the people, a day for a year.

Another example is the Messiah's ministry. He witnessed a personal fulfillment of Israel crossing the red sea, receiving the law and then wandering in the wilderness for 40 years, but his was jordan baptism, receiving the Holy Spirit and then 40 days in the wilderness.

He also personally experienced persecution, death and resurrection saying that a servant isn't greater than his Master; that if they persecuted Him they will persecute and kill his servants...and as he was resurrected on the 3rd day after persecution and death so do his saint wait for the blessed hope of resurrection.

The body must follow the head, right?

I'm kinda on your side, but we discuss the Bible here. History is written by the winners, not eh Holy Spirit. But here is my understanding.

In Revelation 18:4; we have a decisive warning; "And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues." It is directed at "MY people". It does not take more than middle school English to realize that (i) God's People ARE in Babylon the Great, and (ii) if a Christian is caught with a band of thieves in a convenience store at 4 a.m in the morning with a bag full of goods, he will be arrested and charged with the criminals he is with. Now, it also does not need higher education to know that Christians love money as much as the heathen, and that this call to "MY people" will not be obeyed by very many Christians. After all, what are they doing there in the first place?

And so the "plagues" that befall Babylon the Great, will fall in Christians and these plagues are sent out during the Great Tribulation. That means that there are Christians on earth, fully involved with Babylon the Great, and because they are present to enjoy her plagues it means that they have not been raptured BEFORE the Great Tribulation. This is confirmed in three more scriptures;

1. In Revelation 7 a great multitude of men and women from all nations, but who are intimately connected to Jesus Christ, have passed through the Great Tribulation (Rev.7:14)
2. In Revelation 12 a great company of those "who have the testimony of Jesus Christ" must flee to a wilderness and be "helped by the earth" - not God, for 1260 days of the Great Tribulation
3. In Revelation 13:7 the saints will be "overcome by the Beast who make war on them". This is during his time of universal power.

So, a Pre-Tribulation Rapture for ALL Christians is impossible. The argument that these are the people who will believe during the Great Tribulation has not a single supporting scripture. And in any case, with the Christians in the Wilderness and defeated by the Beast, who will be preaching the gospel? It can't be the Two Witnesses of Revelation 11 because they kill their enemies - the opposite of the gospel which SAVES people.

But a Pre-Tribulation Rapture is a fact - just not for ALL Christians. Again I will show three scriptures. But you will immediately recognize that a Pre-Tribulation escape is CONDITIONAL. That is, just like Revelation 18 above, IF you do something, God will do something. IF you are involved with criminals, you get caught with criminals. When God judged Korah in Numbers 16, He warned all Israel to move far away from Korah and his band lest there be collateral damage and you get killed too. So, IF a Christian is involved with the world, he must suffer her portion. IF he is involved in watching and praying, he will be connected to the Savior. Let us examine;
Luke 21:36. The Chapter mostly talks of 70 AD with Jerusalem surrounded and defeated. But then, suddenly, in about verse 25, a change of period takes place. It starts to talk of the "Coming of the Son of man" and the events surrounding it. Verse 36 says three things, (i) you have to be "accounted WORTHY", (ii) IF you are accounted worthy you will ESCAPE these events, (iii) you will "STAND" before the Son of man. If He is not yet on earth, you will be in the sky with Him, and (iv) since the Tribulation covers the WHOLE earth, you must be somewhere else to escape. But it is CONDITIONAL. You have to meet certain requirements.

Revelation 3:10. Christ is speaking to the Church at Philadelphia. He say to them "BECAUSE" you have done a certain thing, He will KEEP you from the HOUR of trial that comes upon the WHOLE EARTH. Again, like Luke, the tribulation covers the whole earth, so there is nowhere ON EARTH you can go where the tribulation won't hurt you. Here, you are "KEPT FROM ... ", not "kept IN". It is not like the 144,000 of Revelation 7:1-8. They are "kept IN" the Tribulation (Rev.9:4). But the Church at Philadelphia will be "KEPT FROM". The word "FROM" means you are away FROM your normal residence. And finally, in Revelation 3:10 the Overcoming Christians are kept from "THE HOUR of trial". That is, they will be NOT PRESENT during the TIME of trial. They will be missing from the "WHOLE EARTH" for at least 42 months - the time of the Great Tribulation

1st Thessalonians 4:14-18 does talk of the Rapture, but it does not address WHEN. It talks about HOW it happens. But in the next immediate verses we have WHEN. In the original text we do not have Chapters and verses. The word "BUT" in Chapter 5 verse 1 shows that the next verse are a continuation of Chapter 4. And verse 1 of Chapter 5 tells of a TIME when this will happen - the "day of the Lord. Now, i will not go verses for verse. I trust you will catch what I say at once. (i) The Lord comes as a THIEF. Why? For something PRECIOUS. Thieves do not steal the trash. They only take the most valuable things. (ii) The Day of the Lord comes as a THIEF. Why? Because everybody will be sleeping and not watching, and they will not sense danger. (iii) The Christians SHOULD not be caught, but if the Holy Spirit warns us not to sleep, then it is because SOME WILL SLEEP ("as do others"). (iv) Like wise, why does the Holy Spirit say "putting ON the helmet - the HOPE of SALVATION". But are we not saved by faith in Jesus? YES! But that is our eternal salvation from the Lake of Fire. This is the SALVATION FROM GOD'S WRATH (verse 9) of the SEASON (verse 1) when we are RAPTURED (Chapter 4). I is all one text and context. If you cherry pick verses you will never get the gist. But if you take it as a whole, all is clear. There is a Rapture in Chapter 4 and this is for a SEASON (5:1) in which three things happen:
(i) the Lord comes as a thief for something precious
(ii) destruction comes on those on the earth as a thief - just when they thought they were safe
(iii) the Christian must PUT ON a helmet of HOPE in a future salvation of God's wrath for this season

But there is a catch. If you read the two letters to the Thessalonians, especially 1st Thessalonians Chapters 1 and 3, you will find that the Holy Spirit FINDS NO FAULT WITH THEM. Like Philadelphia, they are the only Church in all of Paul's letters that does not have a moral problem. Their only problem is that Paul was there such a short time (3 weeks - Acts 17), that they were short on teaching. The Church at Thessaloniki was a model Church.

But in a most unlikely place we have a repeat of 1st Thessalonians Chapter 4:14-18. In Philippians 3:8-14 Paul talks of the PRICE that one must pay to gain Christ - to know Him intimately. The PRICE is "everything you own" - "ALL THINGS". Your money, your comfort, your time, your pride and your rights - nay, even your LIFE. He then continues with (i) resurrection and (ii) RAPTURE - THE PRIZE OF THE "UPWARD CALL". The Greek in verse 14 is correctly rendered in the New King James Version; "I PRESS toward the GOAL for the PRIZE of the UPWARD CALL of God in Christ Jesus." Paul must LOSE ALL, then he must still PRESS towards A GOAL, and then it is, when gained, A PRIZE of the "upward call". The Greek literally means "the call to on high". Once again, it is CONDITIONAL.

So, there is a Pre-Tribulation Rapture. BUT ... it is for a select few WHO EARNED IT. The bulk of Christianity has become apostate and are on the other side if the fence. They must pass through the Great Tribulation to be "purged" and "ripened" by heat and dryness.

I’m not gonna beat a dead horse but I don’t see how a rapture discussion can continue without reconciling the resurrection with all scripture. Specifically in Daniel where it says many but not all. Many but not all is the key to understanding the resurrection.

Nice posting. But am I correct in predicting that your next statement will be that we must, on the basis of the Master's suferings, go through the Great Tribulation? I won't elaborate because I could be wrong.

Just a thought based on the many times this subject is broached. The Christian is preordained to persecution. If his Master suffered at the hand of men, so will His disciples. The malice and WRATH of men is our portion in this age. But the salvation of Jesus Christ is to save us from the awful WRATH of a just God exacting just RETRIBUTION. The Great Tribulation is the WRATH OF GOD. The Christian can expect that our Lord Jesus' salvation extends to that as well. But what hinders all Christians from escaping the Great Tribulation is that they play in the enemy's camp. It is the enemy's camp that is going to experience the wrath of God, and if Christian's insist on loving the world, embracing its system and serving mammon and the flesh, then they're on the wrong side of the fence. The whole New Testament is a big long warning to the Christian to be holy and serve God.

They must not be surprised when they miss a pre-Tribulation Rapture because they played in the enemy's back yard.

This is very insightful, the prophets are basically physical representations of God's plan as prophecy often foreshadows itself in particular with this topic Jesus was also a prophet he died and was ressurected and then ascended to heaven however what happened afterwards? The church was formed but more importantly they were persicuted imprisoned and killed for refusing to deny Jesus this sounds oddly familiar doesn't it?

Why would we hope for a future resurrection when Jesus said that whosoever believers in him will never die?

That tells us that we want be in our earthly bodies when our earthly bodies die and it tells us that we are translated into our new bodies prior to the death of the earthly body.

That is the biblical rapture as it has been ongoing ever since The Resurrection rose from the dead three days after his crucifixtion.

We'll see. I doubt that there are two kinds of salvation, one that is ready for the coming of the Lord and one who really isn't.
The call to come out of Babylon goes back to the book of Isaiah and had an immediate application as well as prophetic meaning. If they were called out of Babylon to rebuild Jerusalem and leave their idols behind (touch no unclean thing) and if Paul used this quote to call the Corinthians to a holy separation then why not keep to the classic application in Rev. Think about it.

Well my post was inspired by KJV's post regarding his belief that the resurrection event we await began at the time of the Messiah's personal resurrection with those who also arose with Him. I don't think it was the true fulfillment, but that it was a personal fulfillment of the promise experienced by the Messiah - as a prophet/witness - testifying to the hope of resurrection for the body of believers in the future.

...But regarding The Great Tribulation, I do believe it's for the Messiah's people.



I don't believe the Great Tribulation is the Wrath of the Almighty.

From my studies, it appears the great tribulation begins with the "wrath of the lamb" against the Jews for rejecting Him and then continues with satan's hateful persecution of the woman & her seed (i.e. all believers, Jew and Gentile) who walk in the Messiah's ways after his ascension.

Meanwhile, the "Wrath of the Almighty" is for those who take the mark of the beast. Believers are not appointed to Wrath (of the Almighty), but - as you say - lovers of the world have no love of the Father and will receive the mark and this Wrath.

Well scripture does say not all will die. There will be those in Christ who remain alive at the coming of the Son of Man. But there are believers in Christ who have died. I think this is why the Messiah says both truths: those who believe in Him who die, yet shall live (i.e. resurrection) and those alive who believes in Him shall never die (i.e. transformation). And it all happens together during the same event

Do you think those that died in Christ in the Old Testament are still in Abraham's bosom?

Some...like Daniel for instance. He was said to be highly esteemed and yet he was told that he would rest and stand with his lot at the end of days (Daniel 12:13). Also, Peter said king David, a man after the Almighty's heart, was still in the grave after the Messiah's ascension. So whoever was raised with the Messiah at His resurrection was specifically chosen as firstfruits.

It kind of reminds me of the situation when a couple of apostles asked to sit at the Messiah's right and left, but He said those positions were specifically chosen by the Father.

Some...like Daniel for instance. He was said to be highly esteemed and yet he was told that he would rest and stand with his lot at the end of days (Daniel 12:13). Also, Peter said king David, a man after the Almighty's heart, was still in the grave after the Messiah's ascension. So whoever was raised with the Messiah at His resurrection was specifically chosen as firstfruits.

It kind of reminds me of the situation when a couple of apostles asked to sit at the Messiah's right and left, but He said those positions were specifically chosen by the Father.

I applaud your attempt to be literal. I do it myself. But Revelation is a mixture of literal prophecy and prophecy by "signs". That is, the prophecies have a literal fulfillment, but are made as a "sign" (Rev.1:1). So while we have seven literal Churches at John's time, four of them are promised that the Lord will return to them and find them wanting (except Philadelphia). So although the Churches are literal, they are also a "sign" of Churches at the Second Coming. Another example is Revelation 11. What can be more literal? But Chapter 12 starts with "sign" in heaven, which is a Woman in heaven, but who gives birth on earth.

So my answer to you is that the Babylon of Isaiah is literal, but "Babylon the GREAT" is a "sign" of the world system of COMMERCE that was developed by Nimrod and carried through all the six great world powers. In Chapter 17 we have "MYSTERY Babylon the WHORE" - the word RELIGIOUS system developed by Nimrod.

But, I judge that even if you disagree in the interpretation, it does not really matter. God has a "People" and they are in Babylon the Great. God warns them to come out, or suffer her plagues. That should be enough for us. In your case to leave the ruins of the literal city, and for my understanding, not to love the world. It is noteworthy that the RELIGIOUS Babylon of Chapter 17 is destroyed yb those who give the Beast ultimate power and worship. But COMMERCIAL Babylon is destroyed by God

Dan 12:2 (KJV) And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

The resurrection STARTED when MANY, but not all, of the bodies of those that slept in dirt rose.

Matthew tells us that MANY but not all of the bodies of the OT saints rose when Jesus rose.

Mat 27:52 (KJV) And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

That event was the beginning of the resurrection.