"Rightly Dividing" 2 Timothy 2:15

in slang terms we wouldn't be far off to translate this as "get the scripture straight" and my premise is that this carries the meaning of using and understanding it correctly & skillfully. i believe that understanding fencing well has carryover by analogy to understanding how to use the scripture well, and this thread is an example of it.

the word is a spiritual sword and the skillful use of a sword involves keeping the blade aligned with the motion of it. so the obvious question is, what is the motion of it? we know some things from scripture:

• all scripture is God-breathed
  • 2 Timothy 3:16-17
• scripture is given by men & women being moved by the Holy Spirit / the Holy Spirit speaking through them
  • 2 Peter 1:21, Mark 12:36, Acts 1:16

so the authorship of all the scripture is via the Spirit of God.
also we know,

• the Christian, the man or woman of God, the believer, the born-of-God is walking & moving by the Spirit when they are doing the will of God
  • John 3:5-7, Romans 8:4-5, Galatians 5:16, 5:25 etc etc
• our armament is spiritual and our warfare is spiritual, not earthly
  • 2 Corinthians 10:3-5, Ephesians 6:10-17, Romans 13:12, Romans 6:13
    • note: in Romans 6:13 the word "instruments" is probably better translated "armament" - in Greek it's a military term for a soldier's kit, describing both armor & weapons

so i will propose that "the motion of the sword" is by the Holy Spirit. this is true both when we talk about the Christian using the sword, and when we talk about the sword being used of God on the Christian to chasten, to teach, and to sanctify us as we read it. it's the action of the Holy Spirit - the intent of the sword is the intent of the Spirit of God, and so this is how the strikes and parries that the sword carries out are determined. the Spirit is the one wielding it in our own hearts, and when we pick it up to wield it, we're only using it rightly 'in proper form' when we are using it in the Spirit, following the Spirit, walking in the Spirit.

so, the arc the blade should travel in is the way the Spirit moves. when we handle the scripture we should keep it aligned with the working of the Spirit.
yeah, that's vague on the surface. i know. but that's why this is a thread, not a blog -- so we can discuss it.
however it does say "study" -- and we know some things from scripture about how the Spirit speaks, what the intent of the Spirit is, which in my analogy translate to what are the motions we need to keep the sword-edge aligned with?

• The scripture testifies of Christ
  • John 5:39, Luke 24:27, 44-45
• the Spirit testifies of Christ
  • John 15:26, John 16:8-15

so i'm going to say from this, that the fundamental intention of all of scripture is to testify of Christ, His person and His work. whether directly teaching us knowledge of Him, or whether convicting & judging sin, which is antithesis of Him, or whether explaining righteousness, which is His character.

from all this -- i would say that "the motion of the sword" when accurately handled is the movement of the Spirit of God, and that movement is speaking of Christ, glorifying Christ & revealing Christ. that is fundamentally what we need to keep our use of the scripture aligned with, if we are to use it skillfully, as "a workman that needeth not be ashamed"

a great example of this is given to us in Galatians 4:21-31 where Paul 'trains us' in proper spiritual swordsmanship, explaining that the right understanding of Genesis 16, Hagar & Sarai, is as testimony of Christ, speaking about salvation through Him & the covenant of His blood & body. yes, Genesis is absolutely a true account of literal events that actually happened. but the fundamental purpose of this account is to testify of Christ, and when we use it the proper use is to speak about the person and work of Him.

we're supposed to see Jesus on every page of the Bible. that's what the Bible is, a revelation of God to us, and Jesus is the Invisible God made visible ((Colossians 1:15, 1 Timothy 3:16 etc)) -- He is there in every chapter, and just as He hid Himself in cloud and fire in the wilderness when He led His people out of Egypt, and Hid Himself in flesh when He was born incarnate in the flesh, He has hidden Himself in the scripture from the first to the last page, and in these last days given us of His Spirit Who reveals Him.

the revealing of Him is the motion of our sword; this is what we line up our point with when we thrust, and our edge with when we cut. He is our shield when we parry, the truth of Him our guards and our posture.


((if this makes sense))

in slang terms we wouldn't be far off to translate this as "get the scripture straight" and my premise is that this carries the meaning of using and understanding it correctly & skillfully. i believe that understanding fencing well has carryover by analogy to understanding how to use the scripture well, and this thread is an example of it.

the word is a spiritual sword and the skillful use of a sword involves keeping the blade aligned with the motion of it. so the obvious question is, what is the motion of it? we know some things from scripture:

• all scripture is God-breathed
  • 2 Timothy 3:16-17
• scripture is given by men & women being moved by the Holy Spirit / the Holy Spirit speaking through them
  • 2 Peter 1:21, Mark 12:36, Acts 1:16

so the authorship of all the scripture is via the Spirit of God.
also we know,

• the Christian, the man or woman of God, the believer, the born-of-God is walking & moving by the Spirit when they are doing the will of God
  • John 3:5-7, Romans 8:4-5, Galatians 5:16, 5:25 etc etc
• our armament is spiritual and our warfare is spiritual, not earthly
  • 2 Corinthians 10:3-5, Ephesians 6:10-17, Romans 13:12, Romans 6:13
    • note: in Romans 6:13 the word "instruments" is probably better translated "armament" - in Greek it's a military term for a soldier's kit, describing both armor & weapons

so i will propose that "the motion of the sword" is by the Holy Spirit. this is true both when we talk about the Christian using the sword, and when we talk about the sword being used of God on the Christian to chasten, to teach, and to sanctify us as we read it. it's the action of the Holy Spirit - the intent of the sword is the intent of the Spirit of God, and so this is how the strikes and parries that the sword carries out are determined. the Spirit is the one wielding it in our own hearts, and when we pick it up to wield it, we're only using it rightly 'in proper form' when we are using it in the Spirit, following the Spirit, walking in the Spirit.

so, the arc the blade should travel in is the way the Spirit moves. when we handle the scripture we should keep it aligned with the working of the Spirit.
yeah, that's vague on the surface. i know. but that's why this is a thread, not a blog -- so we can discuss it.
however it does say "study" -- and we know some things from scripture about how the Spirit speaks, what the intent of the Spirit is, which in my analogy translate to what are the motions we need to keep the sword-edge aligned with?

• The scripture testifies of Christ
  • John 5:39, Luke 24:27, 44-45
• the Spirit testifies of Christ
  • John 15:26, John 16:8-15

so i'm going to say from this, that the fundamental intention of all of scripture is to testify of Christ, His person and His work. whether directly teaching us knowledge of Him, or whether convicting & judging sin, which is antithesis of Him, or whether explaining righteousness, which is His character.

from all this -- i would say that "the motion of the sword" when accurately handled is the movement of the Spirit of God, and that movement is speaking of Christ, glorifying Christ & revealing Christ. that is fundamentally what we need to keep our use of the scripture aligned with, if we are to use it skillfully, as "a workman that needeth not be ashamed"

a great example of this is given to us in Galatians 4:21-31 where Paul 'trains us' in proper spiritual swordsmanship, explaining that the right understanding of Genesis 16, Hagar & Sarai, is as testimony of Christ, speaking about salvation through Him & the covenant of His blood & body. yes, Genesis is absolutely a true account of literal events that actually happened. but the fundamental purpose of this account is to testify of Christ, and when we use it the proper use is to speak about the person and work of Him.

we're supposed to see Jesus on every page of the Bible. that's what the Bible is, a revelation of God to us, and Jesus is the Invisible God made visible ((Colossians 1:15, 1 Timothy 3:16 etc)) -- He is there in every chapter, and just as He hid Himself in cloud and fire in the wilderness when He led His people out of Egypt, and Hid Himself in flesh when He was born incarnate in the flesh, He has hidden Himself in the scripture from the first to the last page, and in these last days given us of His Spirit Who reveals Him.

the revealing of Him is the motion of our sword; this is what we line up our point with when we thrust, and our edge with when we cut. He is our shield when we parry, the truth of Him our guards and our posture.


((if this makes sense))

Get the scripture straight by rightly dividing.😉

God used the KJV and it’s believers to head the largest world wide revival in history. None other can compare. Satan has used the copycat new versions to bring in the Laodicean age. But let’s get back to the thread at hand.

i.e. "cutting straight" -- i don't see any verse telling me to segment the scripture into divisions. i do see many verses explaining to me what the accurate use of scripture is.

Jesus, Paul, Peter, James -- all of these quote the law and the prophets using them to teach the gospel. to me this is a clear indication that the testimony which came before the incarnation, and that which was spoken before the resurrection, and before the ascension, all of these are preaching one thing: God is Salvation. that is how Christ interprets scripture, that is how Paul interprets scripture, that is how Peter interprets scripture.

in the 1800's some men came along and said the proper use of scripture is to cut it into relevant and irrelevant sections. i fundamentally disagree with that, and i know that 2 Timothy 2:15 is a kind of primary 'proof text' for that, but debating about dispensationalism isn't really my primary intention here, even tho it's going to be unavoidable given the subject matter. what i really want to talk about is drawing out testimony of Christ from the scripture, and aligning our use of scripture with that approach.

i agree with "divide" here in the sense of taking the precious out from the vile, separating the spiritual from the carnal, making distinction between the holy and the profane. but as pointed out back in 2012, which i reposted here yesterday ((link: post #48)) there is a word in Greek that actually means "divide into segments" -- but it's not the word that's in 1 Timothy 2:15.
Paul's not telling Timothy to segmentize the scripture. he's telling him to take & to make straight, right paths in it.

rightly dividing ..apportioning.

i.e. "cutting straight" -- i don't see any verse telling me to segment the scripture into divisions. i do see many verses explaining to me what the accurate use of scripture is.

Jesus, Paul, Peter, James -- all of these quote the law and the prophets using them to teach the gospel. to me this is a clear indication that the testimony which came before the incarnation, and that which was spoken before the resurrection, and before the ascension, all of these are preaching one thing: God is Salvation. that is how Christ interprets scripture, that is how Paul interprets scripture, that is how Peter interprets scripture.

in the 1800's some men came along and said the proper use of scripture is to cut it into relevant and irrelevant sections. i fundamentally disagree with that, and i know that 2 Timothy 2:15 is a kind of primary 'proof text' for that, but debating about dispensationalism isn't really my primary intention here, even tho it's going to be unavoidable given the subject matter. what i really want to talk about is drawing out testimony of Christ from the scripture, and aligning our use of scripture with that approach.

i agree with "divide" here in the sense of taking the precious out from the vile, separating the spiritual from the carnal, making distinction between the holy and the profane. but as pointed out back in 2012, which i reposted here yesterday ((link: post #48)) there is a word in Greek that actually means "divide into segments" -- but it's not the word that's in 1 Timothy 2:15.
Paul's not telling Timothy to segmentize the scripture. he's telling him to take & to make straight, right paths in it.

Ok Then the next question this raises is ' how ' ? This is the problem with this translation.

When studying scripture, one needs to understand the audience to whom the writer is writing, Jew, Gentile, or the church of God. When that is determined, then one can place the correct doctrine with the correct audience.

When studying scripture, one needs to understand the audience to whom the writer is writing, Jew, Gentile, or the church of God. When that is determined, then one can place the correct doctrine with the correct audience.

I don't think the problem is so much with translation.
The problem is with people believing they can understand all archaic usage without learning it.
There are many words which are not used in the same way they were 400 years ago.
Not even in the same country the translation in question was done. There are changes in grammar.
It helps to avoid errors if you read a language you understand.
Failing that, you should learn to use the older English regularly before you claim you really understand it.

i know it's going to be really hard for a number of you to accept, but the phrasing of the KJV here does not accurately reflect the language the apostle used when he wrote this.

orthotomeo does not mean to "apportion" or "divide"

see previous information. the Jews who lived in these days and fluently spoke both Greek and Hebrew as their native languages understood this word to be appropriate to describe God making your paths straight ((Proverbs 3:6, 11:5, post #49))

the word does not have the meaning cut into pieces or segment or apportion or divide. that's a totally different word, katatomeo, which Paul certainly knows how to use -- it's here:

that word "mutilation" ? ((concision in kjv))
that's the word that means "to divide into segments"

i'm not sure there's really any sense in which we are to "rightly mutilate the word of truth"

As its evident every cult and False religion sits in the four gospels and has no clue of ' rightly dividing ' ,you can line up all day long every verse that ' testifies of Jesus ' ,and have no understanding on how to appropriate.

Why would anyone assume that's what were saying?

per Galatians 4 Paul apparently thought Genesis 16 was written to believers in Christ after His death, burial and resurrection, and that it should be properly understood as testimony of the freedom in Him through the covenant of His blood.

Any one who has common sense knows that the bible needs to be read properly . Having a translation that says so is some what redundant.

I'm not that old ,I work on building sites . I understand it . Which word do you struggle with ?

yes!
i study two-handed/hand-and-a-half swordfighting, which is, no shield. so it is especially true about the techniques i have learned, that the sword is used to protect yourself just as much as it is used to attack your enemy.
and parrying is really even more important than attacking - it hardly matters if you are able to wound your adversary, if he also wounds you. first protect yourself: get salvation. second, look for openings to riposte. put to death the sinful desires of the flesh. that's the order. you cannot win a battle by only blocking, but you cannot survive a battle if you never block.

the medieval sword masters are not in unanimous agreement about whether to block with the edge or the flat of your blade. some prefer one, some prefer the other, and some seem to use the edge to block in some contexts and the flat in others. i'm not really clear about how that translates to spiritual metaphor?

but i can tell you this: there are three primary ways to parry.
first, you can hold your sword firmly in the way of the opponents weapon, like a wall. you do this with the part of your blade close to the hilt, called the 'strong' of the sword.
second, you can cut into their cut at the same time they are cutting, so that you either knock their attack out of the way as you follow through, or at least keep him from being able to complete his attack. you do this with the center of percussion, for most swords about 2/3 of the way towards the tip. that's the part that transmits the most force when you swing, identical to the 'sweet spot' on a baseball bat.
and third, you can use the tip of your blade to deflect the adversary's blow. you only have to move his weapon a little bit in order to keep it from landing where he wants it to land, but to do this you need to act very quickly, anticipating his movements, so that you contact his weapon just after he begins to strike. the tip of your sword is called the 'weak' because it has the least leverage, and if you are too late in trying to deflect, you won't have the strength to move his strike far enough to keep you out of danger. you do it early so that your 'weak' contacts his 'weak' instead of his 'strong'

so the easiest parry is to bring your sword up like a wall. this takes strength, but it doesn't take so quick of a reaction time.
the middle parry is to respond to his attack with a similar attack of your own, aiming at his own weapon. this takes quicker reflexes but it's more natural to do, in a sense, because it's the same general motion as making an attack of your own.
the hardest thing to do requires the least strength but the greatest skill & speed - to use a small motion at just the right time to make his attacks swing harmlessly through the air. this in turn gives you the best chance to counterattack

What part of Genesis 16 is doctrine for the church? Can we learn from it and apply principles? Absolutely. That’s what Paul was doing, using an OT principle. Paul is teaching those Galatians not to place themselves under the burden of the law.