Baptism of fire
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Well let's break down what was written:
CONDEMNATION OF THE PHARISEES AND SADDUCEES AND THE WRATH TO COME
7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: 9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
JUDGMENT IS PENDING AND HELL FIRE IS FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT REPENT
10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
JOHN'S BAPTISM WAS FOR ISRAEL'S REPENTANCE
11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance:...
BELIEVER'S TO BE BAPTIZED WITH THE HOLY GHOST BY CHRIST
...but He that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: He shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost,...
HELLFIRE FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT OBEY THE GOSPEL
...and with fire: 12Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
CONDEMNATION OF THE PHARISEES AND SADDUCEES AND THE WRATH TO COME
7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: 9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
JUDGMENT IS PENDING AND HELL FIRE IS FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT REPENT
10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
JOHN'S BAPTISM WAS FOR ISRAEL'S REPENTANCE
11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance:...
BELIEVER'S TO BE BAPTIZED WITH THE HOLY GHOST BY CHRIST
...but He that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: He shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost,...
HELLFIRE FOR THOSE WHO DO NOT OBEY THE GOSPEL
...and with fire: 12Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
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the spirit is cleansed by the word of Christ
“Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.”
John 15:2-4 KJV
it’s the word of the gospel that cleanses the heart and that is where the spirit is found
“Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.”
John 15:2-4 KJV
it’s the word of the gospel that cleanses the heart and that is where the spirit is found
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For Jesus to Baptize with Fire is to simply say that Jesus offers a Baptism of Holy Purification. His Baptism is unique, for through Christ alone is one Purified, and none other. No person, no thing, and no personal effort could possibly Purify a person so as to be qualified to be in the presence of God.
To Baptize with Fire is a direct shadow of the Circumcision of Christ. For Christ to Baptize with Fire is for Christ to Circumcise the Hearts of His Children. The two ideas are discussing the same thing . . . which is what is required to receive Eternal Life. To Baptize with Fire is to ensure that the Sinful Nature has been cut out, lifted, removed, killed, destroyed . . . this is the Circumcision of Christ.
To Baptize with Fire is a direct shadow of the Circumcision of Christ. For Christ to Baptize with Fire is for Christ to Circumcise the Hearts of His Children. The two ideas are discussing the same thing . . . which is what is required to receive Eternal Life. To Baptize with Fire is to ensure that the Sinful Nature has been cut out, lifted, removed, killed, destroyed . . . this is the Circumcision of Christ.
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Matthew 3:12
12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
Matthew 13:30
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
Another interpretation is that that this is talking about judgment.
Wheat cannot be refined by fire like silver or gold can. If you burn wheat the entire thing is destroyed along with the impurities. This is called "throwing the baby out with the bathwater."
The Bible does not mince words so your interpretation just doesn't really make complete sense. I propose this interpretation to make it all work with logic better.
In the parable of the wheat and tares, they are allowed to grow together because they need to be harvested separately not together. In other words, wheat is not destined for the same treatment that tares are.
Tares are visually similar to wheat in almost every way aside from their inner qualities. It's the same way with real Christians and imitation Christians. We may be able to fool each other, but in the end there will be no fooling God.
You are right that there is a refining process which we undergo to purify us from sinful habits, but the Bible uses metals as figurative language to describe that process, not wheat or tares.
Wheat or tares are harvested separately. One is destroyed and the other is kept.
12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
Matthew 13:30
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
Another interpretation is that that this is talking about judgment.
Wheat cannot be refined by fire like silver or gold can. If you burn wheat the entire thing is destroyed along with the impurities. This is called "throwing the baby out with the bathwater."
The Bible does not mince words so your interpretation just doesn't really make complete sense. I propose this interpretation to make it all work with logic better.
In the parable of the wheat and tares, they are allowed to grow together because they need to be harvested separately not together. In other words, wheat is not destined for the same treatment that tares are.
Tares are visually similar to wheat in almost every way aside from their inner qualities. It's the same way with real Christians and imitation Christians. We may be able to fool each other, but in the end there will be no fooling God.
You are right that there is a refining process which we undergo to purify us from sinful habits, but the Bible uses metals as figurative language to describe that process, not wheat or tares.
Wheat or tares are harvested separately. One is destroyed and the other is kept.
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For some yes and others have received different gifts of the spirit not everyone receives tongues , others receive interpretation of tongues , others receive whatever gifts the lord appointed for them to the edification of the church
if you are insisting someone receive tongues as proof , that’s not at all my view . I believe tongues is a real and valuable gift in the church but only some receive that gift as others receive other gifts
“But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom;
to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
To another faith by the same Spirit;
to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
To another the working of miracles;
to another prophecy;
to another discerning of spirits;
to another divers kinds of tongues;
to another the interpretation of tongues:
But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.”
1 Corinthians 12:7-11
there are more gifts listed and mentioned on scripture but I think this set of verses really shows that we need to come together to be complete and while God chose to give one the gift of tongues , that person doesn’t receive all the gifts just some of them . We need to get away from individualizing in the church and look at the value of many operating together and how that becomes a fuller and more complete and edified and strong in the lord church because we’ve really lost sight of the bond of unity
if you are insisting someone receive tongues as proof , that’s not at all my view . I believe tongues is a real and valuable gift in the church but only some receive that gift as others receive other gifts
“But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom;
to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
To another faith by the same Spirit;
to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
To another the working of miracles;
to another prophecy;
to another discerning of spirits;
to another divers kinds of tongues;
to another the interpretation of tongues:
But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.”
1 Corinthians 12:7-11
there are more gifts listed and mentioned on scripture but I think this set of verses really shows that we need to come together to be complete and while God chose to give one the gift of tongues , that person doesn’t receive all the gifts just some of them . We need to get away from individualizing in the church and look at the value of many operating together and how that becomes a fuller and more complete and edified and strong in the lord church because we’ve really lost sight of the bond of unity
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Good thread....I've always heard that being baptized with fire is a good thing. So usually as soon as I read that scripture about Jesus baptizing with the Holy Ghost and fire... my mind automatically goes to the scriptures on Pentecost and/or the refining fire. Not so sure about that now.
Guess, that is something I need to think about more. Anyways, good thread and posts.
Guess, that is something I need to think about more. Anyways, good thread and posts.
You've never sung the song, "Refiners Fire"?
Malachi 3:2 KJV - "But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he [is] like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap . . ."
The Bible is incredibly repetitive in its Core Message. Many times the Bible refers to the same topic, but with different words. Sometimes the Bible will use those same words, but with different topics, or subject matter.
In my opinion, you are conflating two different principles, expecting the terms of the terms to be equivalent when they in fact are not the same.
As for me . . . I'll accept Baptism by Fire in view and scope of the Entire Bible . . . not just one small piece of it. Jesus Baptized me with Fine in the Arizona Desert . . . it was and will always be the most single incredible moment I will ever experience while within God's Creation.
Malachi 3:2 KJV - "But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he [is] like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap . . ."
The Bible is incredibly repetitive in its Core Message. Many times the Bible refers to the same topic, but with different words. Sometimes the Bible will use those same words, but with different topics, or subject matter.
In my opinion, you are conflating two different principles, expecting the terms of the terms to be equivalent when they in fact are not the same.
As for me . . . I'll accept Baptism by Fire in view and scope of the Entire Bible . . . not just one small piece of it. Jesus Baptized me with Fine in the Arizona Desert . . . it was and will always be the most single incredible moment I will ever experience while within God's Creation.
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John said this
“John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:
Whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.”
Luke 3:16-17 KJV
John is talking about two things the baptism of fire isn’t a reference to the end and the lake of fire as it is on the parable Jesus told John says he would baptize them with the Holy Ghost and fire
if he’s referring to the lake of fire , he’s saying they would be given the Holy Ghost and then sent to hellfire that doesn’t make any sense .
But then John says and he will thoroughly purge his floor and then begins associating to the parable Jesus spoke about the end
the group baptized by the Holy Ghost and fire are those who receive the Holy Spirit and continue for the in Jesus refining fire of the word. The fire that purifies the heart , when it is rejected leads one to eternal
Fire
we can have the baptism of refiners fire or experience the fire in the end based upon his word and our response
We can stand in the fire now and be cleansed or reject that and be judged by the exact same word
“He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.”
John 12:48-50 KJV
To believe the gospel forces repentance and repentance isn’t always pleasant and the pressure grows as we abide in his word eventually we will break and repent or we will break and lose faith the fire can save throu refining or condemn in the end
“John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:
Whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.”
Luke 3:16-17 KJV
John is talking about two things the baptism of fire isn’t a reference to the end and the lake of fire as it is on the parable Jesus told John says he would baptize them with the Holy Ghost and fire
if he’s referring to the lake of fire , he’s saying they would be given the Holy Ghost and then sent to hellfire that doesn’t make any sense .
But then John says and he will thoroughly purge his floor and then begins associating to the parable Jesus spoke about the end
the group baptized by the Holy Ghost and fire are those who receive the Holy Spirit and continue for the in Jesus refining fire of the word. The fire that purifies the heart , when it is rejected leads one to eternal
Fire
we can have the baptism of refiners fire or experience the fire in the end based upon his word and our response
We can stand in the fire now and be cleansed or reject that and be judged by the exact same word
“He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.”
John 12:48-50 KJV
To believe the gospel forces repentance and repentance isn’t always pleasant and the pressure grows as we abide in his word eventually we will break and repent or we will break and lose faith the fire can save throu refining or condemn in the end
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Hmmm . . . I've never heard of Baptism (in the Bible) as something that is outside of Salvation. I have yet to find Scripture that suggests that there is a Baptisms into, or unto Hell.
It is good that your ears are open . . . but don't let them be deceived.
It is good that your ears are open . . . but don't let them be deceived.
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Matthew 13:36-43 is the parable of the wheat and tares explained.
Jesus gives us the benefit of explaining in plain language what His parable means. It's there for you to read and understand, but I can't read it for you.
Under absolutely no circumstances is it referring to a refining process by which people increase in levels of purity.
The parable is about individual people who are either righteous or wicked. Holy Spirit baptism for children of the King, fire baptism for children of the devil.
Matthew 13:36-38
36his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us pthe parable of the tares of the field.
37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of tthe wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; uthe harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
I don't know what you felt in the desert, but I assure you it wasn't a fire baptism. Possibly the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
Jesus gives us the benefit of explaining in plain language what His parable means. It's there for you to read and understand, but I can't read it for you.
Under absolutely no circumstances is it referring to a refining process by which people increase in levels of purity.
The parable is about individual people who are either righteous or wicked. Holy Spirit baptism for children of the King, fire baptism for children of the devil.
Matthew 13:36-38
36his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us pthe parable of the tares of the field.
37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of tthe wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; uthe harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
I don't know what you felt in the desert, but I assure you it wasn't a fire baptism. Possibly the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
No, I've never heard of anyone getting baptized to hell....so yeah, I'll put more thought into it.
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No.
Matthew 3 is not saying that Jesus will give each believer a Holy Spirit baptism and a fire baptism.
John the Baptist is not speaking to an individual in this narrative, but many people.
It's saying that He will give out a Holy Spirit baptism and a fire baptism. That's because only God is capable of deciding those kind of judgments.
Both judgements cannot simultaneously apply to individuals. For example, someone can't be judged to be chaff and thrown into a furnace and then become wheat to be gathered into a barn. This is because it's talking about two different kinds of people.
Read Matthew 13:36-43 and see if it helps you understand better.
Matthew 3 is not saying that Jesus will give each believer a Holy Spirit baptism and a fire baptism.
John the Baptist is not speaking to an individual in this narrative, but many people.
It's saying that He will give out a Holy Spirit baptism and a fire baptism. That's because only God is capable of deciding those kind of judgments.
Both judgements cannot simultaneously apply to individuals. For example, someone can't be judged to be chaff and thrown into a furnace and then become wheat to be gathered into a barn. This is because it's talking about two different kinds of people.
Read Matthew 13:36-43 and see if it helps you understand better.
The above quote is as far as I needed to read. First, your condescending tone isn't cool.
Second, what does verse 41 mean to you? How does this not reflect refining? How do these words not mean what they mean? See below:
Matthew 13:41 KJV - "The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity . . ."
I apologize, but I do not understand your views at all.
Second, what does verse 41 mean to you? How does this not reflect refining? How do these words not mean what they mean? See below:
Matthew 13:41 KJV - "The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity . . ."
I apologize, but I do not understand your views at all.