A question about rapture (mostly meant for pre-trib theologians).

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
pumpkinbread1567

pumpkinbread1567

Active member
#1
Feb 26, 2021
389
59
28
#1
The question is simple:

  • What do you think Paul meant when he wrote about a resurrection of Christians in 1 Thess 4:16?

The reason for this question is also simple; I assume for most people who would argue for any kind of rapture theory to know that the term "rapture" is nowhere to be found in the Bible in fact, but instead it comes from the Latin word for "caught up" in 1 Thess 4:16, and therefore it's kinda like a slang word among English Christians:

That said, the rapture itself is meant to occur AFTER a certain resurrection of dead believers, according to Paul, meaning that you can more accurately narrow down for the time of our catching up to Christ if you know what resurrection this is. Hence it is imperative for us to ask this question among those who are passionate about meeting our Lord.

(This thread is not supposed to become a room of heated debates. I want it to be just a place to share opinions/suggestions on what resurrection on Paul meant.)
 
Deuteronomy

Deuteronomy

Well-known member
#2
Jun 11, 2018
3,218
3,546
113
67
#2
Hello @pumpkinbread1567, are you hoping that the bodily resurrection of the dead in Christ will give you a heads-up (so to speak) on the timing of the 2nd Coming of the Lord Jesus :unsure: If so, I'm fairly certain that all of it happens at the same time (or nearly so .. 1 Corinthians 15:51-52).

I just checked and the folks at Got Questions have a short article on this .. with video (the text of the article and the video are the same, just FYI). Perhaps this will have the answers you are looking for? Go to: https://www.gotquestions.org/rapture-of-the-church.html

~Deut
 
pumpkinbread1567

pumpkinbread1567

Active member
#3
Feb 26, 2021
389
59
28
#3
Deuteronomy said:
Hello @pumpkinbread1567, are you hoping that the bodily resurrection of the dead in Christ will give you a heads-up (so to speak) on the timing of the 2nd Coming of the Lord Jesus :unsure: If so, I'm fairly certain that all of it happens at the same time (or nearly so .. 1 Corinthians 15:51-52).

I just checked and the folks at Got Questions have a short article on this .. with video (the text of the article and the video are the same, just FYI). Perhaps this will have the answers you are looking for? Go to: https://www.gotquestions.org/rapture-of-the-church.html

~Deut
Click to expand...
Those quotes you've suggested does not seem to be related to when the Lord Jesus returns.

BUT, if I comment on 1 Cor 15, I would look at v53-55. v53 seems to be about v42-45 which are about the first Adam being changed to second Adam that is Christ. (Romans 7, Luke 16:18) Let's look at how Jesus was resurrected after Crucifixion. Remember that he said "And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me." (Mat 10:38, also 16:24) It is, I suppose, debatable as to what "taking up one's cross" means; however, there is what may surprise many, and that's the fact that Christ is getting crucified afresh. (Hebrews 6:6, Rev 1:7, Zech 12;10)

Since the crucifixion came as a result of persecution of Christ himself, if we take up our cross as he did, that means persecution. The first crucifixion was for Christ's own resurrection and perhaps the the saints from old too, the second crucifixion would be for the other saints' resurrection which is recorded in Rev 20 as "first resurrection."

v55 “Where, O Death, is your victory?" also sounds like Rev 20 where it reads that death and hades were thrown into fire lake.
 
R

Runningman

Banned
#4
Mar 4, 2020
8,614
3,678
113
#4
pumpkinbread1567 said:
The question is simple:

  • What do you think Paul meant when he wrote about a resurrection of Christians in 1 Thess 4:16?

The reason for this question is also simple; I assume for most people who would argue for any kind of rapture theory to know that the term "rapture" is nowhere to be found in the Bible in fact, but instead it comes from the Latin word for "caught up" in 1 Thess 4:16, and therefore it's kinda like a slang word among English Christians:

That said, the rapture itself is meant to occur AFTER a certain resurrection of dead believers, according to Paul, meaning that you can more accurately narrow down for the time of our catching up to Christ if you know what resurrection this is. Hence it is imperative for us to ask this question among those who are passionate about meeting our Lord.

(This thread is not supposed to become a room of heated debates. I want it to be just a place to share opinions/suggestions on what resurrection on Paul meant.)
Click to expand...
This is probably more of a question about the doctrine of resurrection of the saints. Also, I'm not a pre-trib theologian so I hope that's ok.

Simply put there are two major resurrections: first resurrection of the saints.(Revelation 20:4-6) Second resurrection of the wicked.

John 5:28-29
28Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

The resurrection of the saints happens first. The resurrection of the wicked happens second. The wicked are resurrected to face the great white throne judgement and they experience a second death. (Revelation 20:11-15)
 
Ahwatukee

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
#5
Mar 12, 2015
11,159
2,373
113
#5
pumpkinbread1567 said:
The question is simple:

  • What do you think Paul meant when he wrote about a resurrection of Christians in 1 Thess 4:16?

The reason for this question is also simple; I assume for most people who would argue for any kind of rapture theory to know that the term "rapture" is nowhere to be found in the Bible in fact, but instead it comes from the Latin word for "caught up" in 1 Thess 4:16, and therefore it's kinda like a slang word among English Christians:

That said, the rapture itself is meant to occur AFTER a certain resurrection of dead believers, according to Paul, meaning that you can more accurately narrow down for the time of our catching up to Christ if you know what resurrection this is. Hence it is imperative for us to ask this question among those who are passionate about meeting our Lord.

(This thread is not supposed to become a room of heated debates. I want it to be just a place to share opinions/suggestions on what resurrection on Paul meant.)
Click to expand...

You are correct in that, the word 'harpadzo' is translated as 'caught up' which is defined as, to snatch up, to seize suddenly, force suddenly exercised, caught up.' This is the same word used when Jesus said, "no one is able to 'snatch them' out of My Father's hand and when Paul was 'caught up' to the third heaven and when the male child of Rev.12:5 is 'snatched up' to God and His throne, etc. The same thing is going to happen to the dead and living in Christ. The dead in Christ will resurrect and be caught up in the air and then the living will be transformed immortal and glorified and will be caught up with them to meet the Lord in the air.

Therefore, the event of the 'harpadzo' is not a theory. The word 'rapture' comes from the Latin, which basically has the same definition as 'harpadzo.'

The resurrection of the church is just one phase of the first resurrection. It is the resurrection which takes place after the thousand years that a person would not want to be present at. For those who are, the second death will have power over them.
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
#6
Jul 18, 2017
24,479
12,948
113
#6
pumpkinbread1567 said:
The question is simple: What do you think Paul meant when he wrote about a resurrection of Christians in 1 Thess 4:16?
Click to expand...
Had Christians consistently called it the Resurrection/Rapture you would not be asking this question. The resurrection of the saints who had passed on (and are brought by Christ to receive their glorified bodies) precedes the Rapture only MOMENTARILIY. Then the living saints are transformed, perfected, and glorified and raptured to Heaven. For all intents and purposes it is ONE EVENT. But I rarely see anyone other than myself use the term "Resurrection/Rapture". So 1 Thessalonians 4 should not be divorced from 1 Corinthians 15. I trust that answers your question.

Also, it is too late to claim that the word Rapture is not found in Scripture. It is now an established theological term, derived from the Latin rapiemur in Jerome's Latin Vulgate (meaning "caught up together").
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
#7
Jul 18, 2017
24,479
12,948
113
#7
Runningman said:
Simply put there are two major resurrections: first resurrection of the saints.(Revelation 20:4-6) Second resurrection of the wicked.
Click to expand...
Actually it is not that simple, and since you do not believe in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture, it will make no sense to you.

1. The FIRST RESURRECTION is the resurrection of the righteous dead.

2. The SECOND RESURRECTION is the resurrection of the unrighteous dead.

3. The two resurrections are separated by a period of more than 1,000 years.

4. At the same time the first resurrection occurs in THREE PHASES, corresponding to the phases of a Hebrew harvest:

1. PHASE I: The First Fruits: The resurrection of Christ was the first fruits.

2. PHASE II. The main harvest: The Resurrection/Rapture of the Church.

3. PHASE III. The gleanings: The resurrection of the Tribulation saints who were all beheaded by the Antichrist.

5. The second or final resurrection is that of the unrighteous dead, just before the Great White Throne Judgment. At that time Death and Hades (personified) are cast into the Lake of Fire. What this means is that (a) there will no longer be death on earth, since sin will be absent in the New Heavens and the New Earth and (b) there will be no need for Hades (called "hell" mistakenly in the KJV) since there will be no more unrighteous dead.
 
R

Runningman

Banned
#8
Mar 4, 2020
8,614
3,678
113
#8
Nehemiah6 said:
Actually it is not that simple, and since you do not believe in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture, it will make no sense to you.

1. The FIRST RESURRECTION is the resurrection of the righteous dead.

2. The SECOND RESURRECTION is the resurrection of the unrighteous dead.

3. The two resurrections are separated by a period of more than 1,000 years.

4. At the same time the first resurrection occurs in THREE PHASES, corresponding to the phases of a Hebrew harvest:

1. PHASE I: The First Fruits: The resurrection of Christ was the first fruits.

2. PHASE II. The main harvest: The Resurrection/Rapture of the Church.

3. PHASE III. The gleanings: The resurrection of the Tribulation saints who were all beheaded by the Antichrist.

5. The second or final resurrection is that of the unrighteous dead, just before the Great White Throne Judgment. At that time Death and Hades (personified) are cast into the Lake of Fire. What this means is that (a) there will no longer be death on earth, since sin will be absent in the New Heavens and the New Earth and (b) there will be no need for Hades (called "hell" mistakenly in the KJV) since there will be no more unrighteous dead.
Click to expand...
At the poster's request to not let this be a debate thread, I'll let the disagreements stand as they are, but most of that I agree with.
 
oyster67

oyster67

Senior Member
#9
May 24, 2014
11,887
8,697
113
#9
pumpkinbread1567 said:
The reason for this question is also simple; I assume for most people who would argue for any kind of rapture theory to know that the term "rapture" is nowhere to be found in the Bible in fact, but instead it comes from the Latin word for "caught up" in 1 Thess 4:16, and therefore it's kinda like a slang word among English Christians:
Click to expand...
What would you like me to refer to it as, Pumpkinbread?

The word "Bible" is not in the Bible either. It is just outside on the cover. Does that mean that the word "Bible" is "kinda slang"?

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

How about " caughtuptogetherwiththeminthecloudstomeettheLordintheair" day?

That is definitely in the Bible.
 
oyster67

oyster67

Senior Member
#11
May 24, 2014
11,887
8,697
113
#11
pumpkinbread1567 said:
the rapture itself is meant to occur AFTER a certain resurrection of dead believers
Click to expand...
Actually, we shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Betcha don't know where I got that idea from.:)
 
oyster67

oyster67

Senior Member
#12
May 24, 2014
11,887
8,697
113
#12
Runningman said:
The resurrection of the saints happens first. The resurrection of the wicked happens second. The wicked are resurrected to face the great white throne judgement and they experience a second death. (Revelation 20:11-15)
Click to expand...
Yes, and The Rapture occurs at the time of the first resurrection...

1 Thessalonians
4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

This passage refers to both groups meeting up with Lord in the air and going up together.
 
R

Runningman

Banned
#13
Mar 4, 2020
8,614
3,678
113
#13
oyster67 said:
Yes, and The Rapture occurs at the time of the first resurrection...

1 Thessalonians
4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

This passage refers to both groups meeting up with Lord in the air and going up together.
Click to expand...
Yes and that rapture and first resurrection happens when the "Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God"
 
CS1

CS1

Well-known member
#14
May 23, 2012
12,350
4,064
113
#14
pumpkinbread1567 said:
The question is simple:

  • What do you think Paul meant when he wrote about a resurrection of Christians in 1 Thess 4:16?

The reason for this question is also simple; I assume for most people who would argue for any kind of rapture theory to know that the term "rapture" is nowhere to be found in the Bible in fact, but instead it comes from the Latin word for "caught up" in 1 Thess 4:16, and therefore it's kinda like a slang word among English Christians:

That said, the rapture itself is meant to occur AFTER a certain resurrection of dead believers, according to Paul, meaning that you can more accurately narrow down for the time of our catching up to Christ if you know what resurrection this is. Hence it is imperative for us to ask this question among those who are passionate about meeting our Lord.

(This thread is not supposed to become a room of heated debates. I want it to be just a place to share opinions/suggestions on what resurrection on Paul meant.)
Click to expand...

that is true the word rapture is not in the Bible as there is not the word Trinity either. The Greek word it translates is harpazo, which means to snatch or take away.

What is the context of 1thess 4:13-18? Who is Paul speaking to? Why did he say this? how did he apply it then? how do we apply today?

The local church was concerned for those who died in the lord and were not live for the coming of the Lord. Paul assured them they had nothing to worry about.

1Thess 4:13-18 :


13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep(term used to describe those who have died and were Christians), lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up (harpazo) together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.


Paul is not speaking hyperbole, metaphorically. Paul is speaking Literally.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.