Cessationism vs. continuationism...does it make any difference?

Sorry, Dr. Macauthor Hermenutics is
The science and ART of Proper Biblical interpretation ".

To know the authorial intent of scripture you must know a few things or ask some questions like,

1. who was the writer writing to?
2. What time frame was it written in?
3. How did they apply ( application) then?
4. and How do we apply it today?

also what HAS Been an error in what Mr. McCarthur quoting, that has not been the case for many years now The Dear Rev. Mac failed to also say that or give you the full context of that statement or the time it was said.

Maybe my issue isn't with you at all, I asked you to post a message or a video of one of your service so I can see for myself.
I have said dozens of times that my problem is what I have experienced and witnessed.

as I told you, I do not need to post a video, I prefer to use the word of God in this setting why do I need to post a video for you?

Surely you agree that my experiences are not authoritative but the word of God is, IF you see error videos you have currently posted what is it you would need to see that you would not consider an error? Are you wanting a performance? I am no performer.

I agree the word of God is the authority,
I guess I'll just let what I have experienced and witnessed inform what I know of Pentecostalism.
I'm not asking for a performance. What I would like to see is a good sound teaching. Anyway, I think we have beat this horse to death and beyond so there really isn't any cause for us to continue, talking across each other.

in addition just to show you how bias even Mr. Mcarthur is he did not give the full context of Dr. Gordon Vee on HIS hermeneutical positions pertaining to the Gifts of the Holy Spirit or all that was said by him. Here is just a few books that Brother mac overlooked from Dr. Vee who he respects he says.


remember this same Gordon Vee who said "Pentecostals have bad hermeneutics" clearly must have helped correct that cause Dr. Vee wrote :

1. God’s Empowering Presence: The Holy Spirit in the Letters of Paul
2. Gospel & Spirit
3. Paul, the Spirit, and the People of God

I will say that Mr. Macarthur I think failed to see these books

Paul is making a comparison of knowledge based on only the OT verses the addition of the completion of the NT. Things that were presented in shadows are not opened for those who will receive. You said it requires faith and it does require faith to believe. That faith is only valid if it is in Gods word and not in the eye of the flesh.
If you can really contend that this generation is not evil and adulterous then you have issues that cannot be reconciled on this board. Jesus was speaking to the Jews who were the ones to whom God revealed Himself by signs and wonders. Now God reveals Himself through His word which He values equal to Himself.

Skeptics always speculate. Scoffers always deny the obvious. Unbelievers never arrive at the truth.

The word of God speaks of Jesus given to reconcile the lost of the world back to God.

You are distracted from the only reason you are on this earth. You are to be a witness of the salvation given only through Christ. The church has the word of God it no longer needs tongues. The church has the word of God and no longer needs prophecy. The church has the word of God and no longer needs knowledge.

Get back to business and start loving and worshipping Christ so others will be drawn to Him.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

IF you want good sound teaching on the empowering for the Holy Spirt? I will recommend Dr. Gordons Vee's book Paul, the Spirit, and the People of God

Most people spend most of their time getting on with the routine aspects of their lives without any emotional highs or lows. Charismatics are no different. What makes a Charismatic is that they believe in the continuation of the gifts of the Spirit and seek to have them manifest in their services. Just because they go to church to have fun and laughter in their worship of God instead of feeling like they have to go to the dentist, doesn't mean they are seeking emotional highs. Many evangelic churches are so boring in their Sunday programmes, that any sense of enjoyment is seen as an emotional high.

Please rip out 1 Corinthians out of your bible. Because nowhere does it say that the gifts of the Holy Spirit have stopped.

But for the sake of good convo, I will ask you what were the gifts of the Holy Spirit for found in 1cor chapter 12 and the Gifts of Christ found in Eph 4:7-12?

Yes me too of course. I was just making the point that even driven to extreme, even if only 1% of it is real, that still means gifts are continuing.

I believe this is one of those situations where if you have been healed by God or experienced some gift in your life, you cannot go on as a cessationist, just cannot happen anymore.

I know this is considered empirical evidence or whatever they call it, but I have been healed of a heart condition that runs in the family and no one can tell me it's "Not real"

many well-intended people are sincerely wrong. yet including those of the pentecostal denominations. healing can be done by a doctor, News flash God gave the understanding to the doctor and God made the body so that it can heal while it is dying at the same time. I too have been healed of arthritis and I have seen God heal people instantaneously and restore them over time.

Yes, the mark is very plainly upon your writings as we read in the scriptures of being seduced by their own foolish ideas. John MacArthur just teaches the bible and nothing else and it’s truths seem to get you excited vs your demonic delusions your expounding upon

I have never even uttered anything prophetic on these boards and you are talking about my demonic delusions?

That is wild

Regarding the John MacArthur video you link here, I agree with him that the word of God must be interpreted properly. I would disagree on a number of lesser issue. One is the idea that one verse has one interpretation. It is pretty clear from scripture that this is not the case. God called both the tribe of Ephraim and Christ His Son out of Egypt, for example. Some prophetic statements had a short-term application and also a broader Messianic meaning. Deuteronomy 18 had a section that applies to prophets in general and in particular to That Prophet, the Lord Jesus Christ. Israel was required to hear prophets, but especially the Prophet like unto Moses. The Israelites were to stone certain offenders, but a verse about putting away the evil among you also applies to dealing with sin in the church. The apostles did not follow John MacArthur's narrow principle in the way they interpreted scripture as is obvious from the text of scripture.

John MacArthur has had his own shortcomings when it comes to hermeneutics related to the topic of this thread. I have not read his 2012 or 2013 book on the subject. But his 1990's cessationist-promoting book was eisegesis. Like he says in the video, people can have wrong interpretations because of presupposition. His argument was based on presupposition. If one does not presuppose that for some reason the teachings of New Testament scripture on spiritual gifts are supposed to be gone by now, there is no reason to accept his argument. His argument basically boiled down to the idea that because God did miracles at certain time periods in the past, He will not do so today. Stripped of all the verbiage, it is not a reasonable argument. Scripture on the subject does not cease to be true because of how he clustered God's miracles.... pre-Pentecost at that. We live in a different era from the patterns he described in the book, this era after the Spirit has begun to be poured out upon all flesh.

I did not hear JM make this argument, but someone else at the conference his church hosted which promoted his book argued that II Timothy 3:16 was an argument against the contemporary role of the gift of prophecy. This is clearly poor hermeneutics.

16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

If we consider the original intent, this was written during a time when prophecy was active. Don't we accept that II Timothy 4 is prophetically inspired? If revelation ended when Paul wrote 3:17 there, then chapter 4 would not be inspired. Neither would the book of Revelation be inspired.

The way they were interpreting the verse displayed a lack of reading comprehension, also. The verse does not say that scripture is all that is given...that the man of God may be... thorouthly furnished. Rather, it says all scripture is given.... etc. This passage does not say that 'scripture is all you need.' If the passage is used to say that you don't need anything because you have scripture, and therefore you do not need prophecy-- which other scripture indicates is profitable and needful to the church, why not apply that same sort of 'reasoning to other things.'

If you can say you don't need spiritual gifts because you have the Bible because of this verse, why not say you don't need love because scripture is all we need, or you don't need preaching or teaching because scripture is all you need.

But the passage does not say that scripture is all you need.

JM has a set of presuppositions about the role of scripture and what he thinks 'sola scriptura' means. In order for that to be true, scriptures like I Corinthians 12 have to no longer be true and valid for the church today, but he does not have any other scripture that cancels out those other passages to present.

He also interpreted 'that which is perfect' to refer to the eternal state in his interpretation of I Corinthians 13 in his 1990's book.

Regarding the video, MacArthur only half knows what he is talking about sometimes when it comes to this topic. I would guess the man who said the Lord gave him his life verse because he was born in a year that corresponded to the verse probably did mean that as a method of hermenuetics. If he did, the host and his wife may have comically been pointing out the flaw of that type of reasoning in an indirect manner. Not everything on a talk show on these networks is intended as hermeneutics. In my experience with Charismatics and Pentecostals is that 'Bible roulette' is not typical behavior. Maybe I have heard of it once from an individual, not from the pulpit. But John MacArthur is no stranger to straw men when it comes to this subject.

Occasionally, encounter people who really like John MacArthur who seem to lack any ability to reason through a text of scripture who seem to post more from rhetoric and emotion who are light on well-reasoned arguments. Maybe they like him to do their thinking for them. I have encountered people like this who liked Rebecca Brown books and also back in the day with people who followed Arnold Murray and his strange teachings.

I would encourage you not to be like that, to interact with the posts directed toward you and to prayerfully meditate on what the scriptures presented to you mean.

This is clearly eisegesis. There is absolutely no reason to think this is what Paul was getting at without reading that idea back into the passage. It is a very anachronistic interpretation, assuming Paul thought like 19th or 20th century cessationists, when there is no evidence for that way of thinking in the first place. The 'eye of flesh' supports carnal interpretations such as those that are averse to the power of God.

If you look in the book at other passages, in I Corinthians 1, Paul mentions themes he would address in later chapters like 12-14, utterance and knowledge. He writes, "So that ye come behind in no spiritual gift, waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.' In this book, a theme is looking forward to a certain eschatological event, in chapter 1, the coming of Christ, and in chapter 15, the resurrection and transformation that occurs 'at His coming.' This is what Paul is looking forward to in the book. It makes sense to interpretation I Corinthians 13 in light of these facts, especially since Paul wishes they come behind in no spiritual gift while waiting for Christ's return...when the gifts he was going to address in the passage include words of knowledge, tongues, and prophecy.

The issue is not whether our generation, the world outside, is evil and adulterous. Wickedness abounds. The issue is whether you should apply that verse toward saints who believe in spiritual gifts to somehow imply that all who hold to a biblical views on spiritual gifts are evil and adulterous by virtue oftheir holding to these views.


Jesus was speaking to the Jews who were the ones to whom God revealed Himself by signs and wonders. Now God reveals Himself through His word which He values equal to Himself.

You sound skeptical, and the tone of many of your posts comes off as scoffing. I hope the latter sentence does not apply to you. It is not a Biblical statement either. If it were, Paul would have remained in unbelief.

That last statement, in particular, is strange, but does explain your approach to Bible interpretation.

You create a false dichotomy. Spiritual gifts are not at odds with evangelism. The Bible indicates that we have need of the various members of the body of Christ, including those who prophecy and those who speak in tongues. One part of a body does not say to another, "I have not need of thee' and you should not have that attitude toward other members of the body of Christ who have these gifts. See I Corinthians 12.

just ignore that hateful person.

I find that some people, if they do not have any really substantive point to make, argue by calling their opponent names, impune their motives, accusing them of being deceived, demonic, etc. They just throw negative rhetoric around instead of addressing the actual point of the discussion. Often, those who do so are incapable of reasoned discussion, or they are wrong and convinced they are not and know no other way to defend their position.

I know that this one is always an argument in the making. You can't bring up a topic that divides believers so strongly and not expect a backlash I guess.

I have been on both sides of the coin. I now feel no pull to either. I understand the logic and scriptural understanding both sides take, but there is something lacking on both sides. It is the extremes again, the pendulum will not swing forever on these matters, and when finally we who do not have all knowledge about such things, stand before the living God, it will not matter which side we stood on where these non-salvational and contraversial issues are concerned. What will matter however, is how we treated those who were not standing close enough for our living to where our limited understanding placed us.

I know the Holy Spirit is with us, I know He heals us eternally, I know that miracles happen everyday, and I dont care what label they arrived under, be it an act of God, or via an act of God through a person He chose to use at that moment. If you feel you have a gift of the Spirit, just get on and use it for God's glory, get on in the hospice and raise the sick, get on in the towns and preach to the masses, get on and share that prophecy, and leave the others to do as they feel right before their God.

But if you say you can heal, and are too busy travelling to your bg stadiums and charging folks hundreds to attend your conventions and your conferences and your crusades... or are too taken up with writing the next best seller, and promoting that dvd, or the selling of your books, to go to the hospice and empty it for Jesus as you say you have been gifted the power to do.... then maybe reconsider your life and your motives and your salvation.

If you say the gifts have ceased, then dont waste time arguing the point, instead just go and pray for God Himself to heal if you know you cant, and pray for god to reach the lost if you know you cant reach them, and remember that you can still rejoice in the goodnesses of God and that His mercies are new EVERY MORNING, and He never changes, so there is never a cause to believe He won't do the miraculous, gifts or no gifts. Gifted or no gifted. We can still ask Him directly and we dont have to be miserable and condemning everyone who thinks otherwise as some can become when they feel the gifts have ceased... I dont know why that is... but I have seen it and I have been it too.. I guess that is where I will leave my thoughts.

Thank you