TONGUES TODAY

I love John.
I also am an advid fan of Oliver B. Green, and J, Vernon McGee as well as Billy Sunday and if you have never heard Dr. John Sullivan, you have missed heaven coming down.

Yes.....I am a Cessationist. I am because that is what the Bible says. "TONGUES SHAL CEASE"!

You do not have to agree with me!

Then way in the world do you engage me in conversation?????

I agree with your assessment of those who know about God, and may I also add that there are a lot of make believers just as there are believers today.

Titus 1:16 ........
"They profess to know God, but they deny him by their works. They are detestable, disobedient, unfit for any good work

Fair enough. But before you go, if you could just answer a couple of questions it would help me a lot.

Have you personally witnessed what you consider a genuine gift of tongues in operation? If so, what criteria did you use to determine it was genuine? Is it something objective you can share with us so we all can do the same: that is, use the same criteria and determine if what we are witnessing is real or not?

well you and others like you, have decided they have already ceased. God has a different timeline, but thankfully for you, just for you, they actually have ceased

the Holy Spirit does not agree with you. that is what actually matters




I never thought we or you and anyone else were actually conversing.

what you do, is actually try to dictate the terms of God as you appear to understand them

I have witnessed the genuine moving of the Holy Spirit of God. no nonsense or personal egos or 'shows'

I have also learned that opening up on a forum like this does nothing but invite mockers

I have also learned that response in the second sentence may cause some to reflect further on their own mistaken opinions and come to the conclusion I have no proof

Of course I have no proof. Does the Bible give proof or does the Holy Spirit give grace to believe? if you are genuine in your desire for truth, I pray God answers you prayer. I know He has many times shown Himself to be faithful and that tongues...praying in tongues in particular, is one of the most valued items in our life as Christians

it's come full circle in this thread at any rate.

you are insulting to those from Alabama, and Florida, and country people. You are a very ignorant person and being a country boy has nothing to do with it. You are just a hateful person because I called on your judgment of others. And I don't sit at my PC as you may think I have a job and in the ministry. I am here because I happen to love many people here even those who have and do disagree with me yet are far more able to make an argument than you. You are a person who has hate.


And as I said earlier which you did not address, why are you not doing what you judge other of? What great testimony you have for the lord?

Don't mean to offend, but I still just do not understand the fascination that some have in what they call "speaking in tongues".

That is exactly what I have done. Have you not read the Scriptures and references I have posted??????

Videos simply bring what many have been told to right in front of their eyes. A PICTURE is worth a million words.

I appreciate your thoughts.

However....you do realize I hope that I have made NO demands. I have dictate NO terms whatsoever.

All I have done is post the Scriptures.

1 Corth. 13:8-9.........
"Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away."
For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away"

Now notice closely.......I DID NOT SAY THOSE WORDS! GOD SAID THEM!

God said tongues will CEASE when the PERFECT COMES. Without dictating or demanding or even explaining anything......
what you need to do is identify what THE PERFECT IS.

There are only 3 things I can think of that can be perfect.

JESUS. He has already COME, lived and died and rose again so the PERFECT can not be Jesus here in this text.

HEAVEN. But look at the Scripture. The PERFECT IS COMING. We GO TO Heaven so that rules our Heaven as the Perfect.

THE BIBLE. The Bible is the Perfect Word of God. It has NO errors, NO Mistakes and NO contradictions. By the simple process of elimination we are left with the Bible as the PERFECT.

Now......what do YOU say that the PERFECT is. You need to come up with something that has not yet come to pass so as to keep the "Continuation" belief alive.

SO have I !!!!

Yes, that is very true and it is also true that these forums open up the real nature of Christians.

BOTH. The Bible and the Holy Spirit make a witness to the grace of God.

If you think praying in tongues is fruitfull for YOU then by all means do it. However, you may not be aware and I encourage you to goggle this and do not trust me but........The word translated “tongues” in both Acts chapter 2 and 1 Corinthians chapter 14 is glossa which means “language.” It is the word from which we get our modern English word “glossary.”

I do not normally take this much time in responding but you seem to be a really nice person trying to explain the reason why you do what you do. PLEASE do it.

However, allow me to say to you that 1 Corinthians 14:13-17 tell us that praying in tongues is also to be interpreted. As a result, it seems that praying in tongues was offering a prayer to God is that is what you are saying. This prayer would minister to someone who spoke that language, but would also need to be interpreted so that the entire body could be edified.

I am sure that this idea does not agree with you and you probably have not considered it.
Those who view praying in tongues as a prayer language do not accept this understanding and it can be summarized as follows: praying in tongues is a personal prayer language between a believer and God (1 Corinthians 13:1) that a believer uses to edify himself (1 Corinthians 14:4).

Now may I say to you that this interpretation is unbiblical for the following reasons:.....
1) How could praying in tongues be a private prayer language if it is to be interpreted (1 Corinthians 14:13-17)?
2) How could praying in tongues be for self-edification when Scripture says that the spiritual gifts are for the edification of the church, not the self (1 Corinthians 12:7)?
3) How can praying in tongues be a private prayer language if the gift of tongues is a “sign to unbelievers” (1 Corinthians 14:22)?
4) The Bible makes it clear that not everyone possesses the gift of tongues (1 Corinthians 12:11, 28-30).

How could tongues be a gift for self-edification if not every believer can possess it? Do we not all need to be edified?

Well my friend......You just crossed the line.

You just showed everyone that your heart is BLACK and that your thoughts toward those who do not agree with YOU are PAGAN and UNCHRISTIAN. You accuse me of Hate and judgment but what did YOU JUST DO???????

YOU just used terms that are not allowed by the rules of this forum and are not allowed by the God and Scriptures we hold so dear.

What kind of ministry are you in......Christian>>>>>> How in the world can you be in the Christian ministry and speak to another person the way you just did??????

Does your church realize the way to communicate to others.

What a joke!

But I don't see in any of your quotes where Jesus or Paul said directly that the supernatural gifts of the Spirit were meant to be just temporary. 1 Corinthians 13:8 refers to Judgment day, not the completed canon of the Bible. The latter is an invention of a 19th Century theologian justifying why the gift are not evident in the churches. It is amusing that many Calvinists use the completed canon of Scripture as the reason why the gifts ceased, when Calvin himself said that 1 Corinthians 13:8 definitely referred to Judgment day. The other references you quote have nothing to do with spiritual gifts at all.

I'm really glad I'm not the only one and they are upset because it is not there but want it to be.

I think that most continuationists feel the same way. We know that the Scripture clearly shows that the signs and wonders should be accompanying the preaching of the Gospel, and that the elders of the church should be able to see sick people in their midst totally healed as the result of prayer. And because of that they persevere in obedience to God's Word in spite of the many times they don't see the actual results of it.

But we get clues as to why things don't happen:
Disrespect for the Lord's supper, turning into a ceremonial and ritualistic Lord's "snack".
Liberalistic denial of miracles and the resurrection of Christ.
Divisive party spirit fragmenting the body of Christ.
Serious willful sin in churches.
Attacking and devouring fellow believers through criticism and persecution because they belong to a different denomination.

While these things are happening in our churches, even in Charismatic and Pentecostal ones, we will rarely see any evidence of the manifestation of the true spiritual gifts. The Israelites failed at Ai after their great victory at Jericho, because one man decided to keep some of the booty for himself in spite of Joshua's general instructions not to. Just one man's disobedience caused the expectation of victory to result in total defeat! If that defeat was because of just one man's disobedience, then we get strong clues why we don't see widespread evidence of the spiritual gifts in our sin-ridden, disobedient churches.

I can tell you this. I will never see anyone healed IF I don't pray for them myself asking God to do so.


it's like yelling at people there is no more wall phone since we have a smartphone and yet has not been to everyone home to make that claim. Then get mad because you say I have seen them but they watch youtube videos of all wall phones being fake.

Is the "Tongues" we see practiced today in churches all over the land actually Biblical and valid........
OR is it an emotional exercise in religious fervor????

When I became a Pentecostal about 50 years ago, I was prayed over and told to "move my lips" and begin to spew forth "gibberish.* Being skeptical, I retired to a prayer room, and began to pray. Out of my mouth came the most beautiful English!

I did begin to practice "tongues," because I was taught that it is a gift for all believers. "All" in the upper room had it.

But later, I came to understand that a "prayer language" isn't Scriptural--that's just Pentecostalism run amok. The Scriptures indicate not all speak in tongues. The Scriptures indicates God gives gifts as He wills.

In other non-Christian cultures, "tongues" is practiced. It can be concocted by the flesh, and quite without the Spirit of God.

That being said, I do believe some genuinely speak in tongues. Paul boasted that he did it more than anyone he knew.

But Paul also said that we should emphasize the more useful gifts in our life, without neglecting lesser gifts. Let's follow his advice. But let's not add to the Scriptures. There is no "prayer language" in the Scriptures, no necessity of speaking in tongues in order to receive the Spirit Baptism.

Spirit Baptism is simply receiving Christ's spiritual life in place of our own independent carnal life. Period. Christ himself will give us what we need to do our job. We won't have to concoct it.

I guess it has all to do what what God calls us to do. I prayed in tongues for the whole 12 years I was with the Pentecostal church. The best teaching I got about tongues was that one had to pray it from the heart and not just from the mouth. When I put that into practice I found that I was speaking very expressive articulate languages to God which brought me into the presence of God in a special way.

When I left the Pentecostal movement in 1978 (long story), I found that I did not stop praying in tongues. I ask the Lord about that, and He told me that my prayer language was not church-based, but genuinely from the Bible.

What I asked the Lord about what was most important to Him concerning what I was doing, He told me that my prayers were much more important than anything else I was doing in the church. I then understood why I had received my particular prayer language, because I can pray without ceasing as the Scripture instructs, without my trying to think up topics for prayer. I have also found that when I have prayed in tongues about a particular issue, I have also found a better expression and the right words to pray in English for that issue or person.

I don't think that tongues is a spectator sport. It is a very sacred, holy form of prayer, because it is inspired by the Holy Spirit who is a very holy Person. Because He is a Holy Spirit, I can understand why a person who doesn't have a very high standard of personal holiness would be unable to pray with the same quality of tongues as someone who does. This also applies to any manifestation of the spiritual gifts. To manifest a gift of the Spirit is entering into a realm where we are in partnership with the Holy Spirit, therefore what we are doing is holy and sacred and therefore not to be taken lightly.

Everything that the Holy Spirit does through us is precious and highly valued, and therefore must be done with the highest respect for a holy God who is totally serious about seeking and saving souls from an eternal hell, and getting them into heaven to have fellowship with Him.

I think that babbling away in tongues just with the mouth, with no purpose just to provide a public display, is an affront to the Holy Spirit, and therefore an insult to our holy God who has given us the gifts for the betterment and strengthening of the body of Christ.

It is the same with rattling of prophecies in KJV language that are forgotten by the next hymn is also an insult to the Holy Spirit who has provided prophecy for the edification of the saints. Prophecy is a three-way fellowship, the speaker, the Holy Spirit, and the listener. When all three are in harmony, the love of God is expressed and the listeners get a clearer view of the grace of Christ as He is revealed through the prophetic word. To prophesy in the Spirit is a sacred act, and therefore must be used prayerfully in the fear of God to make sure that what we are saying is correct, accurate, and Christ-centred.

I think that those who take videos of groups of believers during worship times, when they are spending a holy time with the Lord, is an affront to God and an insult to those who are worshiping the Lord in spirit and in truth. Believers' worship times are not for public consumption. They are holy pearls, not to be cast before swine in order that they be trampled underfoot by those who seek to ridicule the particular way in which the Lord is worshipped. We don't take which is holy and feed it to pigs, therefore we don't record videos of holy people engaging in sacred worship of God and then put it on the internet to feed it to the unbelieving public and religious criticizers.

I'm not as concerned as much as you about being an "affront to a holy God," because God is more patient than any man I know. I certainly won't take His kindness for granted, but neither is He waiting for us to slip up so He can stomp us into the ground.

I like your spirit and your sincerity. I think that counts for much. About the only thing I disagree with is your sense of superiority for speaking in tongues over those who don't.

You say it makes you, in a sense, "more spiritual," or more "adept" in some way. I don't agree with that.

What makes one "spiritual" is obeying God, and being content with what He chooses to give us. And clearly, Paul asks, "Do all speak in tongues." That question assumes a "no" answer.

No, not all speak in tongues. And why?--because they are less spiritual, disobedient, afraid, or indifferent? No, it is because the Holy Spirit "gives gifts as He wills," and not "as we will."

Otherwise, I like your respect for God and for the idea that things must be genuine, and certainly not a "show." Take care...

As stated, I am neither a cessationist nor a continuationist; I do not identify with either term. In fact I had never heard of either until just a few years ago. This seems to be 'born again Christian' nomenclature.

As far as the audience needing an interpreter, it's because no one there at that particular public gathering understands the speaker's language. The only person being edified is the speaker. Paul calls for clarity and understanding at a public worship setting such that all may benefit; thus, his calling for an interpretation so all may benefit.

1 Cor. 14:14-15 -
This one could easily take a few pages to explain properly, but I'll try and sum it up as briefly as possible.....

AS with Acts, you have to go to the Greek. This passage hinges on the Greek word “akarpos” – which can be used in two different ways: in an active sense and in a passive sense.

Many people subscribe to a passive usage, i.e. my understanding is unfruitful ( to me ), or my understanding produces no fruit in/for me . In short, what I'm saying doesn't benefit me as I have no idea what I'm saying even though I am praying “in the spirit” (as defined in my previous posts).

Given that Paul, in his letter, calls for clarity and understanding at a public worship such that everyone there can benefit, an active understanding of ‘akarpos’ makes considerable more sense in light of what Paul is trying to convey: that is, my understanding is unfruitful for others , or my understanding produces no fruit for/in others .

In other words, the fact I understand what I’m saying does not benefit anyone else as they don’t speak my language.

This is not just my view, but also the view of a number of Biblical commentators (Clarke, Barnes, Coffman, Gill, Vincent, Wesley, Abbott, Calvin, Coke, Meyer, Edwards, Schaff, et al.)

Now, before you think using this passage with an active meaning is something far-fetched, or a new concept, or a recent ‘theory’, consider Luther’s Bible of 1534 - written almost 500 years ago, and some 30 years before King James was even born.

This same passage is rendered (in English) “...my understanding brings no one fruit”.

Even almost 500 years ago, the idea of this passage having an active usage was nothing new. Indeed, an active understanding/reading fits better with Paul’s intent of clarity so all may benefit. Further, it's clear here the speaker is praying in a particular (known) language; his native language.

There’s just no evidence whatsoever of modern tongues-speech here. The speaker understands perfectly well what he’s saying; again, it’s the audience who doesn’t understand, and thus does not benefit.

Verse 15 - In this verse, the speaker will 'pray/sing in the Spirit' (as defined in my original post), and will pray with his mind/understanding. The context requires that praying/singing with 'his mind' is understood to mean with his mind bearing fruit or being fruitful to others. Again, the active sense as already defined in verse 14. It's all about real, rational language. One the speaker knows, one the audience does not.

Yes, in Acts, the Apostles were speaking real, rational language, but not nearly as many as most people suppose.

You say I have a black heart is really funny because it is your display of hate and bias you created THIS THREAD.
you are just mad that you were admonished for your judgment of others.

Now you are all broken-hearted because you beat at your own game? You have been saying from the opening of the thread how ungodly we are and now you have your feelings hurt AND TRYING TO TAKE THE MORAL HIGH GROUND no sir,. I never called you pagan I said you use pagan history to explain biblical things. it was not I who recommend a socialist G. Orell to explain the gifts of the Holy Spirit it was you. I did not call on a linguist to establish the false term " Modern Tongues' which is a humanist term used by evolutionists and atheists, you did. I did not have to use youtube videos of those who are in error AS we all said they are You did.

it is not I who used two verses in one chapter of 1cor 13:8-9 to say that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are not for today YOU did.
You were in your comment about

those who are Alabama, Florida. America and Country Boys that was suggesting what You speak their language as a form of mocking my testimony, I did not cry over that but you, what a wimp. LOL grow up guy.