More Errors?

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AandW

AandW

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#121
Jun 9, 2021
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#121
I do agree that it is not an error here, but 1st Samuel and 1st Chronicles have quite many interesting views, evens those of the same Event and still have distinct differences. This is interesting time period for the Hebrew Peoples. We even have God reveal a plot to kill a king by sending forth a [lying spirit] so this king would go to war and die on the battlefield.


19 And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.

20 And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner.

21 And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him.

22 And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.

23 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.
 
AandW

AandW

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#122
Jun 9, 2021
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#122
2nd Chronicles has same Version:

18 Again he said, Therefore hear the word of the LORD; I saw the LORD sitting upon his throne, and all the host of heaven standing on his right hand and on his left.

19 And the LORD said, Who shall entice Ahab king of Israel, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one spake saying after this manner, and another saying after that manner.

20 Then there came out a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will entice him. And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith?

21 And he said, I will go out, and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And the LORD said, Thou shalt entice him, and thou shalt also prevail: go out, and do even so.

22 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil against thee.


Who knew, God asked the actual Heavenly Host [who would send forth a lying spirit]. And as we read on, there is a Volunteer called a spirit (lower case) who does the Will of God!
 
AandW

AandW

Banned
#123
Jun 9, 2021
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#123
[ + s + ] = ....words with lines in it lol ok
 
awelight

awelight

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#124
Aug 10, 2020
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#124
2ndTimothyGroup said:
These are my personal notes on Day 143 of the timeline, chronological reading plan from the Blue Letter Bible website. For you "scholars" here, I'd love to hear your thoughts on these two parallel chapters. And no, I do not read commentary (only very rarely) as I would much rather bring ALL studies to ALL of you here. Therefore, please do your best NOT to go to commentaries, but let's work through these issues on our own and with the Holy Help of our Father in Heaven. Thanks for your input.

~~~~~~~~~~~~

Writing about Day One Hundred and Forty-Three has been a difficult challenge. Why? Because while there seems to be critical doctrine to cover, those teachings are shrouded with disagreement. There are three points of contention within this set of readings, and they are as follows:

Second Samuel 24 teaches us that the Lord incited David to generate the census for Judah and Israel. At the same time, First Chronicles testifies that Satan incited David into developing the census.


Typically, there would be plenty of opportunities to expound upon teachings such as Holy Mind Control in today's reading, but how can we “go there” if the two sources can’t get their stories straight? Was it God, or Satan, who occupied David’s mind so that he would generate the census? Is it possible to be more backward? We should be writing of the Holy Mind Control that the Lord pressed onto David to cause him to generate the census. However, we cannot follow through with that vital teaching because the First Chronicles rendition is in complete contradiction. We cannot use the Second Samuel text to demonstrate the Mind Control of the Lord. Let’s take a look at the Scriptures themselves and make comparisons.

Who Incited the Lord against Israel?
Second Samuel 24 1-3 . . . N K J V: – “Again the anger of the LORD was aroused against Israel, and He moved David against them to say, "Go, number Israel and Judah." So the king said to Joab the commander of the army who was with him, "Now go throughout all the tribes of Israel, from Dan to Beersheba, and count the people, that I may know the number of the people." And Joab said to the king, "Now may the LORD your God add to the people a hundred times more than there are, and may the eyes of my lord the king see it. But why does my lord the king desire this thing?"

First Chronicles 21 1-3 . . . N K J V: – “Now Satan stood up against Israel, and moved David to number Israel. So David said to Joab and to the leaders of the people, "Go, number Israel from Beersheba to Dan, and bring the number of them to me that I may know it." And Joab answered, "May the LORD make His people a hundred times more than they are. But, my lord the king, are they not all my lord's servants? Why then does my lord require this thing? Why should he be a cause of guilt in Israel?"

Let’s take a step back and revisit the census. Would it be fair to say that the Lord was upset with Israel, or perhaps even David, because David might not trust that all of the fighting men were True Israelites . . . the Lord’s Servants? Joab makes this case in verse 3 (immediately below), asking David to confirm or deny that all of the men's hearts belonged to the king. It seems that David was possibly fearful of "men" and wanted to make sure who they were, that perhaps there were no enemies amongst them. But if this were the case, why would the Lord have been upset with David for attempting to find out who Truly belonged to Israel, compared to those who belonged to the abominable Canaanites and Hivites?

  • First Chronicles 21 3 . . . N K J V: - “And Joab answered, "May the LORD make His people a hundred times more than they are. But, my lord the king, are they not all my lord's servants? Why then does my lord require this thing? Why should he be a cause of guilt in Israel?"

If the Second Samuel rendition is correct, could it be that God was looking for a reason to clean, sift, and Purify His Jewish House? Does the Lord know that 70,000 people were not True Jews, but those of the Seven Nations? Were these the Plans of our Powerful God? Is it possible that God was eliminating those who were not of the True Vine? If so, then why punish David for such a deed as performing a census? God caused David to conduct the census, so why should this crime and subsequent punishment fall upon his shoulders? Ultimately, the punishment did not fall upon David, but upon the 70,000 who died.
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I will take a stab at your first question, who turned David to do a census.

First and foremost, we must understand, that if there seems to be confusion or contradiction in the Word of God, the confusion or contradiction is in the mind of man, not with God.

There are two issues here between 2nd Samuel's account and 1st Chronicles.

First, the translators made an assumption when translating the Hebrew word שָׂטָן, (which means adversary); they believed the original writer was meaning Satan, ie.. the Devil. However in closer examination, the definite article was left off. Therefore, it should have been translated "adversary" and not Satan. This type of adversary, in Scripture, is almost always against God or against that which is good. This verse should have been rendered as: Now an adversary stood up against Israel....

The Second, goes to our proper understanding of this account. Harmony between the two can be found in the proper understanding of God's "direct" will and "permissive" will. If God permits something to take place, it is often said that God did it and indeed He has. God could always intervene but often determines not too. After all He is God and is in control of all things. However, God's "direct" or "determinate" will is not involved in Sin. God may permit the sin but He does not lead one into that sin. David's choice to have a census is a sin and Joab tries to talk him out of it. 1Ch 21:3 And Joab said, Jehovah make his people a hundred times as many as they are: but, my lord the king, are they not all my lord's servants? why doth my lord desire this thing? why will he be a cause of guilt unto Israel?

There is a similarity in this topic of discussion to that which took place upon Pharaoh. Scripture records that God "hardened Pharaoh's heart" on several occasions, so that he would not let the people go. Why? Because God had determined the number of the plagues which were to come upon Egypt and nothing was going to prevent that. God used both a "direct" hardening and an "permissive" hardening on Pharaoh. In other words, God sometimes directly hardened Pharaoh's heart and at other times someone else was the instrument.

In 2nd Samuel 24:1, we see God's "permissive" intent. He is said to "move David" but "move" him how? It can't be by "direct" will because this would make God implicit in David's sin. Therefore, we are told the instrument "moving" David is an adversary in 1st Chronicles 21:1. Someone's bad advice given to David perhaps? This "adversary", against Israel, becomes the instrument of David's temptation. We are not told who this was. Whomever it was, whatever it was, it changed the disposition of David's heart. Joab asked his lord... "Why does my lord desire this thing?"....(1CH 21:3b). Something put the thought in David's mind and it manifested itself as a desire of the heart.

So in God's permissive will, it can be said that God "moved" David. God did not intervene on David's account, so God wanted it to take place. The instrumentation employed in accomplishing this is a secondary consideration. The primary take away from this: Is that God was angered "again" with Israel and held David, it's King, responsible.
 
R

reneweddaybyday

Senior Member
#125
Mar 23, 2016
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#125
2ndTimothyGroup said:
How do we know that Jesus was even telling the Truth? In another piece of Scripture, we find that Jesus lied to His "brothers" when He told them that He wouldn't be attending a specific festival. However, after his "brothers" left His presence, Jesus attended anyway.

John 7:8, 10 NLT - "You go on. I'm not going to this festival, because my time has not yet come." ... 10 "But after his brothers left for the festival, Jesus also went, though secretly, staying out of public view."
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The Lord Jesus Christ absolutely did not lie. Here is the record:

John 7:

1 After these things Jesus walked in Galilee: for he would not walk in Jewry, because the Jews sought to kill him.

2 Now the Jews' feast of tabernacles was at hand.

3 His brethren therefore said unto him, Depart hence, and go into Judaea, that thy disciples also may see the works that thou doest.

4 For there is no man that doeth any thing in secret, and he himself seeketh to be known openly. If thou do these things, shew thyself to the world.

5 For neither did his brethren believe in him.

6 Then Jesus said unto them, My time is not yet come: but your time is alway ready.

7 The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil.

8 Go ye up unto this feast: I go not up yet unto this feast; for my time is not yet full come.

9 When he had said these words unto them, he abode still in Galilee.

10 But when his brethren were gone up, then went he also up unto the feast, not openly, but as it were in secret.


vs 1 - Jesus went to Galilee because there were some who wanted to kill Him.

vs 2 - please note this is the feast of tabernacles. According to Deut 16:16, the feast of tabernacles was one of three feasts in which all males were to appear before the LORD thy God in the place which he shall choose. The Lord Jesus Christ had to go to Jerusalem to attend the feast.

vss 3-5 - His brethren ... these are the sons of Joseph and Mary, not "brethren" as in household of faith or family of believers. According to Matt 13:55, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas were His brothers. His brothers urged Him to go show Himself to the world and perform works for His disciples to see. According to vs 5, His brothers were unbelievers ... they did not believe Jesus was Messiah.

vs 6-7 - Jesus told them His time had not come. Jesus was cognizant of the Father's timing. He was well aware that He was hated because He was bold in His confrontation of evil works.

vs 8 - Jesus told his brothers to go to the feast ... that He would not go yet. We know that according to the law He had to go to the feast as it was one of the feasts in which males were to attend (Deut 16:16).

vs 10 - Jesus waited for His brothers to leave and then He went up.


Jesus chose not to go up to the feast with His brothers who, according to vs 5 were not believers. Jesus waited for His brothers to leave, and then He went up.



 
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