accepting Jesus

I was raised with the Lutheran truth that we can be saved, as Christians, through grace, and not have to perform in any way to qualify for this salvation. There is no law we have to meet, and no endurance record, not litmus test, to qualify us for getting through the pearly gates.

And I do think Luther was a prince of this concept of grace, just as Paul was. We can never satisfy the requirements of the Law of Moses to get into heaven. We are all flawed people.

But many raised in the Protestant churches today have missed what being born again means. I believe in his doctrine of grace Luther taught the need to be reborn. I believe he himself experienced a profound personal transformation, the same time that he learned about grace.

Today, many just think "accepting Jesus as Messiah" fulfills the requirement of accepting grace. But it doesn't. True grace comes when we accept Jesus' righteousness into our lives.
We can't earn that righteousness, but we can certainly abandon our old ways for a new way of life in Jesus' righteousness. This is the transformation required to get into heaven.

Accept grace by accepting Jesus' righteousness, and learn to put it into action. We need not be perfect, but we need to know what Jesus' love is, and to practice it, as evidence that we have truly received it.

I believe we're justified by grace, through faith; that's pretty elementary. Is that what you mean by "accepting grace?"

When the Holy Spirit comes into our lives, He works in us to produce Christ's righteousness. It's nothing we do.

I'm sensing a subtle blurring of the lines between salvation by grace through faith and the Catholic doctrine of salvation through ongoing sanctification. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Personal transformation is not Salvation.

Spiritual transformation, that happens because you have become BORN AGAIN, is Salvation.
This is the Spiritual transforming that recreates the spirit in a person as a "new Creation in Christ". "One with God".
If you have this, if you are born again...... then you have Christ in you and Christ Himself is eternal life.
"Christ in you = the hope of Glory", and "Glory" is heaven.

Jesus says that if you truly believe in Him, then God accepts this faith as : "faith is counted as righteousness".. and this brings the blood atonement to you as your redemption from sin, which then allows God to birth you "born again"" INTO His Spirit by the Holy Spirit.

You can't do any of this. You can only receive this SALVATION< or not.... which is why no personal self effort transformation can get you into heaven.

Here is the reality Check..
For you to go to heaven, you have to become and exist as God's very righteousness.= Spiritually...(born again).
This is why God came down here as Christ on the Cross, so that He has delivered to you...>"the Gift of Righteousness" as ..."the Gift of Salvation".
If you have this Gift, then you are born again and you have been "Made Righteous", and you will go to heaven.
If you dont have this Gift, is you are not born again....then you are here....... John 3:36

God Himself has to give you a NEW BIRTH in the SPIRIT, """born again"""..... or you will not go to heaven.
Water cannot do this for you, as water has no spiritual power, its just water.

1 John 5:11-13

I was raised a Lutheran, but I'm respectful of the Catholic position, if I understand it correctly. There are a few good Lutherans left, but most that I've known have lost their spiritual life. So they have doctrine and platitudes. Other Christians from other persuasions believe in "accepting Christ as Savior," but that has become for many a shallow commitment to the Christian religion, rather than death to the old man in favor of the new man created in Christ, the "New Birth."

Your own formula sounds shallow--I mean no disrespect. This is what I hear all the time--"It's nothing we do." What on earth does that mean? Of course it's something we do! We embrace grace as the basis of our justification. But it's in the actual receipt of Christ's righteousness into our lives that constitutes "receiving Christ's grace." How can you receive his grace without doing anything?

James 2.17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.

The point is, you better know what accepting justification by grace means. It means that in order to be forgiven you have to be willing to live in righteousness. And that righteousness comes from Christ, in partnership with the choices we make. It is not all Christ, nor is it all us. It is a partnership, with the atonement coming strictly from Christ.

I hope this helps? There is a better vocabulary that exists to describe what I'm distinguishing, but I can't recall the terms just now.

Are you kidding? This is what I said: "We can't earn that righteousness, but we can certainly abandon our old ways for a new way of life in Jesus' righteousness. This is the transformation required to get into heaven." And you say this kind of "personal transformation" is not Salvation? You deny that "abandoning our old ways for a new way of life in Jesus' righteousness" is Salvation? I have to wonder what your idea of Salvation is?

And you deny this is "personal transformation?" Are you saying that having Christ in you does not change you at all? Without Christ we live in sin. Accepting Christ is accepting his righteousness into our lives!

Personal transformation, personal choice, and acting on that choice is part of our Salvation, because it is in this way that we demonstrate our faith in Christ. It is only Christ's atonement that acquits us, but it is our choice to repent of our sin and to adopt his righteousness that validates our receipt of Christ's Salvation.

Of course you have to "do this!" You yourself admit that we "receive this Salvation"--that is "doing" something. I never said we earn our own Salvation. But if we truly receive Salvation we prove that we have actually received it by putting Christ's righteousness into effect in our lives.

Apparently you didn't recognize that I was indeed speaking of the "New Birth?" The work of atonement belonged to Christ alone. The work of receiving Christ belongs to us. Both comprise Salvation--not our earning it, but our validating the choice we necessarily make to receive it.

The confusion arises because there is a second salvation. Baptists and Catholics call it progressive sanctification. I've not found that expression in the Bible. I have found "salvation of your souls" twice in the NT.

It costs nothing to be born again. This is the initial, eternal and irreversible salvation that Lord Jesus secured for us through His death, resurrection and shed blood. That is the only way to even see the Kingdom of God. The next question is what happens next? Lord Jesus is not just seeking to give people a "get out of hell free" card. He seeks disciples, not just converts. You can't be a disciple without being born again, but those who avoid the daily cross and denial of self are useless in God's kingdom work.

The soul of man should be the way that the inner man of the spirit is expressed outwardly. For example, God tells us to witness to a friend or relative. That word is in the spirit, it does not come to the mind. The mind is used to express what God says in our spirit man. So we communicate the gospel with words. The mind is of the soul. So is the will. When God speaks, we have a choice to obey or not. Emotion is also of the soul. It gives colour and emphasis to our words so that they have real impact. A robotic voice will not touch the heart like a voice that shows passion.

The soul, especially the mind, is programmed by the world to resist God's ways. So there is often a conflict, especially when something is dear to us. Even Lord Jesus faced this dilemma. He was told that His friend Lazarus was sick. Who would not have rushed to help a sick friend? Who would not have been touched by the sorrow of grieving relations? Yet Lord Jesus obeyed God and waited until there was no hope for Lazarus. Then the greatest of all the miracles happened.

Those of us who want God's power, God's will, God's ways and God's kingdom will face many dilemmas, tough decisions, impossible situations and challenges. God intends to break down our independent self reliance and bring us to complete dependence on Him. He wants us to be willing servants, not rebellious and selfish. He wants us to obey because we see how wonderful it is to serve the risen Lord Jesus wholeheartedly.

To be born again costs nothing. To be a true servant of God costs everything. Too often it is like the rich young ruler, Christians cling to what is precious to them and miss out on God's best.

(a few Scriptures about Salvation)

Titus 3:5 - Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Ephesians 2:8-9 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: (Read More...)

Romans 10:9 - That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Ephesians 2:8 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Matthew 7:21 - Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

John 14:6 - Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Acts 4:12 - Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

John 6:44 - No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 15:1-27 - I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. (Read More...)

Acts 16:30-33 - And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? (Read More...)

Psalms 3:8 - Salvation belongeth unto the LORD: thy blessing is upon thy people. Selah.

Psalms 37:39 - But the salvation of the righteous is of the LORD: he is their strength in the time of trouble.

Psalms 62:1 - (To the chief Musician, to Jeduthun, A Psalm of David.) Truly my soul waiteth upon God: from him cometh my salvation.

Acts 28:28 - Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

Romans 6:14 - For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

John 3:16-18 - For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (Read More...)

Psalms 60:5 - That thy beloved may be delivered; save with thy right hand, and hear me.

Galatians 2:21 - I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

John 3:17-21 - For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. (Read More...)

Acts 2:1-47 - And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. (Read More...)

Acts 2:36-41 - Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. (Read More...)

I was baptized as a baby in the Lutheran church....that is not biblical

if a person accepts Christ as their Savior right now and dies an hour later, they are still saved

what do you think salvation is exactly?

I was properly baptized as a young teen-ager when I actually understood what it was all about


not sure where you are getting this Randy, but it never helps to paint with such a broad brush

Okay, I think you answered my question.

By the way, I don't have a "formula," it's God's word. If you have a better idea than God, then by all means, be my guest.

"Salvation" is a big word, and doesn't just refer to the atonement that qualifies us for it. It also includes the process of being delivered from sin, through sanctification and finally, through resurrection. You're mixing these things up, defining "Salvation" only in terms of what properly atones for Man's sins. Beyond our atonement, our "salvation" involves walking away from the carnal lifestyle.

The real problem here is that when one speaks of "salvation" as something *we do,* it is instantly thought that "help" is being given to Christ in working out our atonement. And that just isn't true. Only Christ could work out our atonement.

But "salvation" itself requires that we participate in it, and do the good works associated with our salvation. It comes through a partnership between Christ and ourselves. He supplies the inspiration, the virtue, and the atonement. We only comply by choosing to live in it exclusively, letting Christ's atonement cover our shortcomings.

I'm convinced some will never be able to understand this. Catholics make it worse by adding to "what we do" things that the Scriptures don't even ask us to do. They add Catholic tradition, and render the Eucharist an actual participation in Christ--a ritualistic access to Christ, which is not biblical.

So as much as I agree with the Catholic formula of Christ's atonement plus our sanctification, I can't agree with their definition of "Christian works."

What you're doing here is saying just what the Catholics say, and then denying you're saying it! 1st the atonement of Christ, and then our Sanctificaiton!

That makes no sense. Nothing bypasses the mind!

This is a theology that I grew up with, spiritually. Watchman Nee taught that mind, will, and emotion were functions of the soul which, without the spirit guarding them, become "soulish" activities, void of the Spirit of God. And I would agree with that, if that's what you're saying?

Good preaching! But you're mixing good preaching with soteriology, which you are confusing with your definition of "Salvation." If you want to define Salvation only in terms of *atonement,* I would agree that only Christ did that. Man's works count for nothing if we do not obtain Christ's atonement.

I also agree that we need to rely on Christ, to be connected to the "Vine." All virtue flow to us through Christ. But we have to participate in it by choosing to live in it, and to reject all other sources of living. It's a difficult subject! But I would say, in summary, that Salvation is both Christ's exclusive atonement and our partnership with him in living for him. Our participation in him, by our own free choice, does *not* mean we help Christ in atoning for our sins! It does *not* mean we qualify for Salvation apart from Christ, by our own independent works! It only means that if we are to truly benefit from Christ's Salvation, we must choose to participate in it by choosing to live in Christ.

Yes, of course..... and i'll deny your "works and self effort is salvation" teaching every time you try to substitute LIFESTYLE for : "made righteous".

See, on one hand, you seem to understand that The Blood of God shed for you, is why you go to heaven or not....but then you add the "personal transformation", into it.
See, personal transformation is the PERSON DOING IT.........and Spiritual Transformation is GOD causing it.
They are not the same.

This type of teaching is usually the result of a person not understanding that Salvation is not Discipleship.

Salvation is the Transforming of the Spirit that is Salvation, that God causes.
Discipleship is the "lifestyle" that should reflect the inner transformation., that the person reveals.

What a dumb thing to say! You think there is no such thing as a "righteous lifestyle?" And of course, you have to make this argument by slandering me. I *never* said I believe in "self-effort." Please quote me saying this? You won't find it!

So your argument is illegitimate, and based on slanderously misrepresenting what I said. And I have to believe you're doing this on purpose. I went out of my way to say I believe the born again experience is based on a *partnership,* which implies it relies upon a connection we must have with Christ. The branch must be connected to the vine.

Please tell me this is a misunderstanding?

Of course "transformation" includes "us doing it,* though again, I said we do it *in partnership with Christ.* We cannot do it alone. Christ is the source of all virtue. If you think you are being transformed without choosing Christ or without choosing to do righteous deeds, you're living in a dream in la la land.

So now you contradict yourself by substituting for "personal transformation" the word "discipleship?" I see no difference between the ideas, unless you think Christ does the "discipleship" for you?

Once again, you are combing what isn't available.

Listen carefully.....

An unbeliever can "choose to do righteous deeds".......that you keep talking about.

Talk to a Buddhist in France, and they will enlighten you regarding doing righteous deeds. I have talked to them.
Talk to someone in Taiwan who is believing the religion of reincarnation, and they will tell you all about doing righteous deeds.
I have talked to them.

Talk to a minister of Satan, and they will talk to you about doing righteous deeds. Ive talked to thousands of these people.

So, here is the issue....
You can do righteous deeds, and not be born again........That would apply to many Catholics, and all Muslims.
So, there is about 60%+ of the worlds population, all doing your "righteous deeds"... all going to hell.

Now, where is Christ?.... He's not in any of that....


So, the Transformation you are trying to understand, is not about doing righteous deeds.
Its about Christ in you, living His righteous life, through you.
Or as Paul teaches...>"its not I who live"....but its Christ who lives in me, ...through me".
= THERE is the Transformation, that is Salvation......and that is NOT someone just doing "righteous deeds", as you teach.

Now, i know you will try to work around what you have said, again, and sort of redesign your next post to try to fill in the gaps and overwrite the errors......and thats fine.....but just remember, its not the righteous deeds that prove Salvation, its The Christ in you, who is Salvation.

Jesus said....>"I am the VINE and you are branches"........So, the RIGHTEOUSNESS is the VINE, and the fruit comes through the Branches, FROM the VINE.

Why do I have to listen carefully? I've been saying this for a long time! Unbelievers can indeed do the right thing! The whole idea of divine judgment is predicated on human choice, on the capacity of unbelievers to choose Christ and to choose to do good. When unbelievers choose to do good it isn't the same thing as choosing to be saved, but they can certainly do good!

Gen 4.7 If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door. Its desire is contrary to you, but you must rule over it.”

So if we're in agreement on this, why do you want me to "listen carefully?"

What are you talking about? I *never* said those who choose to do good things will automatically be saved! You falsely suggest that I'm saying choosing to do good is the equivalent of getting saved! I've *never* said that. In the Garden of Eden, Adam and Eve were condemned for mixing sin in with doing good! It is *not* getting saved, if it is not accompanied with a choice for Christ and living to do good only in Christ.

Don't speak for me. The Transformation I'm stating is all about choosing to do righteous deeds in Christ. It is choosing not just to do a few good things in Christ, but a choice to displace our own independent ways for a life only lived by the Spirit of Christ. We are choosing to do good *only* in Christ!

Not true. I *never* taught that and never will! I've *never* taught that "just doing righteous deeds is Salvation!" Before you continue to slander me, you better produce the quote where I say this? You won't find it, unless you seriously doctor what I said!

I already quoted that myself. I do believe you're a genuine brother, because you are stating a lot of Christian truths. But the way you are misrepresenting me is infuriating, and you should make the necessary corrections.

Were you up on the Cross?
The day that happens, then you can give yourself credit for a "partnership" with God's Son.
Till then, only :Give God ALL the Credit for Salvation that is due Him.

Your BOAST of "partnership" need not apply.

Remember in the previous post i said you would change your words to try to overwrite your error?
Well, you just did.
See, you changed...."Righteous works', into "right thing.
I'll wonder what you'll change next.

You are still trying to transform yourself.
That can't happen.
Thats a facade... thats a pretender.
But what can happen is that you can become born again, which renders you through the Blood of Jesus and New Birth, as a New Creation In Christ.
This is the REAL Transformation.
THe lifestyle change that you are talking about, if it is related to the new birth, is never you trying to be righteous..
Its Christ who is Righteousness, living through you........That is where real discipleship is found.

that’s it right there , at first I thought this was going to be another post ignoring the message behind the cross but you nailed it better than I could have said it

I truly appreciate this post in many ways, We know we are “saved by grace” but that has a meaning to it and the teachings of Gods true grace that sounds like this when described which I feel matched your post above

“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.”
‭‭Titus‬ ‭2:11-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I think that the question is did Jesus lay his life down so we can continue on in sin , hiding from the truth of Gods word ?

or did he lay down his life to wash our sins away so we can approach God without fear of evisceration for our sins , and begin to hear his life changing and life giving word and believe him unto salvation ?

“Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; And having an high priest over the house of God; Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭10:19-22‬ ‭KJV‬‬


In the ot under the law men were commanded to remain far away or they would die and they said d knew if we hear any more of Gods word we will die ! It now our sins were remitted we can approach the throne of Grace and hear the word of God that promises everlasting life to believers

but he also calls Us into repentance and right living not the law of Moses living but the living in the gospel full of the Holy Ghost and detailing the love of Jesus Christ and everything he approves

God does not call us into repentance, if we are born again.
He calls us into VICTORY.

God delivers us from sin.

If we are living in repentance, then we are living as confessing sin, repenting......
That is not Christianity, that is religion trying to do right to be accepted.
Salvation is to exist in the Grace of God, being made righteous.
We are to live here....>"The righteousness of God in Christ", as that is who we have become, as a Son of God and and Daughter of Christ.

There is a cult that teaches....."we are to live a life of repentance", and hopefully you are not a part of that one.
Your response to me, should inform us if you are........of that Cult.