2 Thessalonians 2:3—Rebellion or Apostasy?

True.

Paul tells us to only see our body as dead, ...."dead because of sin".........and so, the body is that, and our sin nature, that is found in our mind (soul realm)......as this is where a person thinks about sinning before they do it with their body.......that has been crucified with Christ, as that is the ""old man""..........and so, what is left?
All that is left is the born again Spirit and our mind that is to be RENEWED.
And the renewing is 95% to understand that you are not your body or your mind......as once you become this mind, then you become this......"walking in the spirit".
A Spirit led person, will sound "kinda nuts" to the carnal minded Christian, as the carnal minded christian is deceived and sinning and confessing, and so when they hear the solution, this does not seem right or possible to their carnal mind, and they will perceive the Spirit led person as...>"fakir".....or "sinless perfection"......or anything that their deceived mind can come up with to try to deny that what they are being taught is true.
But once they get the revelation of who they have become as a "New Creation" "in Christ"....then from there, the bible opens up, and the revelation regarding the Grace of God starts to pop.
The first one is Hebrews 13:9.
It tells the born again that they have to do this one thing, and for LIFE....And by doing this, you wont be FOOLED by LYING HERETICS< which the verse describes as teaching : "doctrines of devils".

Uh you just made a case for " the rapture(departure) comes first then the ac is revealed.

( your definition)

So you just made a case that the day of the lord is the rapture and the "departure" (day of the lord) comes before the ac is revealed.

Welcome to the correct pretrib rapture view.

The born again can view the law and the 10 commandments as : 'lifestyle boundary"..
If we stay inside the 10 commandments, as our lifestyle, then we wont be "sowing and reaping" some hurt and devastation unto our own selves.

Some Rules are good, unless they become to the born again person, ""im keeping myself saved by keeping these rules".
So, that person has lost faith in Christ to keep them saved, OR, if they are trusting in rules as their salvation, having only been water baptized but never born again, then they will die and go directly to hell.
Thousands of water baptized law and commandment keepers died today and yesterday and tomorrow, and will go straight to hell.. And they will be wondering how this could have happened.


A.) Jesus said...>"you must be born again".

I have no idea who P. Ellis is, as ive never heard of this person.
What i can tell you, is that i only teach Pauline Theology, which is why you find it "odd".

You should start here and learn this.....and then from these verses, you can begin to understand what Paul teaches, which is what i always teach.
-

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the Law.

thats not how it is framed.
One way is " departure from" is the rapture from.
The other is apostacy before the ac is revealed.

Either is ok with me.

But we are in "A" "falling away from the faith" at this moment. The likes of which have never been recorded.

So to think the churches will be less full of people or the spirit at this point ( or a future point).....is pointless.

Ahwatukee,
Read post#20.
Tell me if that postrib adherent just laid out the pretrib rapture.

The irony

Well, you really don't have to ask that question, because Jesus gives it to us right in the context of why they will be falling away from the faith:

"Then they will deliver you over to be persecuted and killed, and you will be hated by all nations because of My name. At that time many will fall away and will betray and hate one another, and many false prophets will arise and mislead many."

So, because their faith in Christ they will be persecuted and killed and hated by all nations, which is the cause for their falling away, regardless of the meaning of the word. It will be because they will not be truly grounded in Christ. And so when persecution and the threat of death comes, they will abandon their faith to save their own lives.

They are likened to the parable of the seed falling on different soil. The seed that is sown on rocky ground represents the one who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. But since he has no root, he remains for only a season. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away. And that is what Jesus says is going to happen. They will be hated by all nations for His name sake, but when persecution or the threat of death comes because of the faith, they will turn away from it to save themselves.

I agree, in that. I believe that the apostasy has been taking place before our very eyes. People have completely turned away from God and are completely embracing the sinful nature. They have forgotten that without Christ they are remain condemned. Once the church is gathered, then the Day of the Lord will begin which is when that man of lawlessness will be revealed.

Post #20 must be by someone who is on my ignore list, because it goes from post 19 to 21. Who is it from?

FreeGrace2

.

Thanks!

You sound exactly as you are.....its this.....>"im trying to sound like an authority".
And that is the exact sound you produce. The bible refers to your sound as : "vain jangling".

Here is the thing.
I have the experience and you have the opinion.

Dont let that be where you end up, as currently, that is where you exit.

Listen,
Im seminary trained, but i dont let that get in my way.
I live on both sides of the Planet, at times....
I have a home in the USA and in Israel.
Ive taught the NT to France, to Russia, to Taiwan, to Israel....and much more in the USA.
I have dealt with every type of conceivable heretic., and can teach you about the "cult of Mary" that you've never even heard of as you think this devil's lie is the "Catholic Church".
Ive been on every Christian forum......all of them, and many dont even exist anymore.
This last 2 yrs im on 5, including this one.


I know what im talking about, randyk..
I have the experience.
Believe it.

"The coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to Him" are the same event and not two events, i.e. we are gathered to the Lord at His coming. This is in keeping with 1 Thess.4:16-17 which says that the Lord himself will descend from heaven, i.e. His coming. And then the dead will rise and the living will be changed and caught up, i.e. the gathering.

Neither are the words in red or blue is speaking about the second advent, i.e. when Christ returns to the earth to end the age. But both the words in red and blue are speaking about when the Lord appears and calls up His church, which will be prior to His wrath and prior to when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age.

The words in green are referring to the time period of God's wrath, the Day of the Lord, which takes place after the gathering of the church.

That's not particularly impressive, largely because citing your credentials in place of making a reasonable argument is the worst form of copout. I was talking about the definition of "Legalism," and you resort to trying to impress me with how many forums you've been on. Get back with me when you can prove your Christian legitimacy by carrying on a respectful disagreement?

The following is *not* Legalism:

Phil 2.12 Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling,

Those who want to claim that anything we *do* is evil don't know what they're talking about, and are full of internal bitterness, raging against imperfections in Christians that they have themselves. People indeed have the freedom to *do good,* whether or not it gets them saved. And people are perfectly free to choose to be saved.

We freely choose to be saved, and to stay saved. And we freely choose to do good in Christ. Christ alone atoned for our sins, and he alone is the source of all moral virtue.

But to say we have no freedom to participate in Christ's virtue or in his Salvation do not know what they're talking about. Either that, or they are utterly incapable of distinguishing between what Christ does and what we do.

yes a lifelong process that doesn’t work if we reject the teachings that’s my point Gods grave isn’t a magic word it comes when we believe the gospel of the kingdom Jesus began to preach his teachings are the source of a gods grace that teaches us to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts and to live upright lives in this world while we wait for the lord

If we reject the truth of this part we’ll never learn to deny these things

“But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:18-25‬ ‭KJV‬‬


when we’re talking about following the spirit

“It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:63‬ ‭KJV‬‬

it includes all
Of the warnings and especially the things we don’t want to accept because it’s ultimately about this , effectually this is what saves us and changes us

“And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭12:2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Believing the gospel Jesus taught is how our minds are changed from the world to Gods truth

it’s imprinted on our minds and transformed them because of what it is

“I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.”
‭‭John‬ ‭17:15-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

We are changed purely by abiding in his word Jesus Christ’s word is truth as he is truth and spirit our minds change by his knowledge imparted from one glory to the next we are changed by abiding in the doctrine of Christ of we fail we know that he’s promised in his own words not to abandon us , and he’s also taught us to repent when we are aware we’ve done wrong and change that action moving forward

to say “ we’re saved by grace” is true but there’s no understanding tomchange anything we have to accept the grace of Christ not the world

you nailed it and it’s actually THE issue caused here which led the whole world to where we need salvstion

this is where it all went wrong notice the subject matter of knowledge

“And the Lord God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it. And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭2:15-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

as soon as they are the fruit partaking of the fouled knowledge thier minds and countenance changes and they become afraid of thier lovong creators presence and sound of his word

this is just before they transgressed

“And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭2:25‬ ‭KJV‬‬

and this is just after

“And they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God amongst the trees of the garden.

And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.

Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭3:8, 10, 23-24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

ot was never Gods will that we need cast out of his presence and kept from eternal Life . It was satans Will for us and so mans heart and mind became fouled

“And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭6:5-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

this wasn’t his Will is why he’s repenting in his grieved heart his Will was for man to abide with him in his presence forever not having been corrupted in our heart through sinful knowledge

it became a part of mankind’s existence because every man was within Adam and Eve when they were cursed in the beginning it’s why we die

so through the ot we see the issue remained and where his eyes are on us

“The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? I the Lord search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.”
‭‭Jeremiah‬ ‭17:9-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

We need our hearts to be cleansed and believing the gospel does that it changes us from a wicked heart to one full of Christs word and will the will of Gods children in the heart an evil heart leads to death through sin

but a heart healed by the knowledge of the lord will love forever

yep your trying to understand pauls letters by excluding the gospel I understand that’s why I recognized the doctrine

you keep returning to how you can omit the gospel by calling it moses law

“The law and the prophets were until John:

since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭16:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

when you are trying to make Jesus gospel of the kingdom into Moses law you are doing that so when you wuote something like this it seems
Like you have some point

“But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭3:21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

But already Christ has made that clear

“For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭11:13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the law and prophets were until John the Baptist and his ministry , when Christ began preaching it’s the gospel


“The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;

Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭1:1, 14-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

your whole idea is flawed from the start the reason I mentioned Ellis is because he’s a promoter of the fallacy that Jesus taught Moses law and only oaul ores he’s the gospel it’s entirely erroneous to omit the word of Jesus Christ from salvation and you truly should reconsider the path you are on in your mind

those walls get built by false doctrine and distort the mind but if you turn and believe the gospel your going to have Gods true doctrine that Paul the servant of Jesus the lord , preached of.


A good way to understand is when anyone’s trying to get our mind away from Jesus and his word , it is not of God God will never say this

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

and then advise men to turn away and ignore it that will always and forever be sourced in this guys heart

God told them the truth and Satan then works to turn them from
It it’s an eternal principle

“And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭3:4-5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the New Testament is the gospel and Satan works hard to get people to disbelieve Gods word of life and salvstion like he has always done from Eden

we don’t want to be on the side of being deceived and deceiving others turning tbier eyes from Gods word , we want to believe and share it with others knowing it’s true and saves us

Lots of false doctrine in the world but one eternal truth that saves