the great Jewish "distress"

I suppose I will tackle this scripture. Acts 1:6 So when they had come together, they asked him, “Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” 7 He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has fixed by his own authority.

The promise was made to restore the kingdom to Israel but the restoration of Israel in the 7 years of tribulation a bittersweet story.

A man who will make a covenant with many allows Israel to build the temple which begins a nightmare for the world.

But for Israel during the first 3 1/2 years it will seem like a blessing from God.

it will be like the days of Noah and Lot. They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built ,married and given in marriage. He will bring the jews home to Israel and protect them for the first half of the tribulation.

People will look at this man as the Messiah and in time beg him to be their King. But he has other plans and expects to be accepted as almighty god. Thirty days later he will place the abomination of desolation and then many will flee.

The scriptures for the most part are still about Israel for God has not forgotten his people Israel.

The kingdom of God which is the 1000 year reign of the Lord is the time the true kingdom is restored to those who survive the tribulation.

We are too far apart for any more discussion but i wish ya the best.I have been at this for 40 years and I know what i believe

I continue to have a huge problem getting Christians to acknowledge the obvious, that in the Olivet Discourse Jesus focused not on the 2nd Coming as much as on the judgment to come against Israel in his own generation, and that Israel would go through a period of "great tribulation" from 70 AD, when the temple would be destroyed, to the end of the age. We call this the "Jewish Diaspora." Very few seem to be willing to acknowledge this, for the simple reason that modern prophetic circles do not favor that interpretation.

Jerusalem.

I think if we look at the question he was asked itnhekos understand what he’s answering both the immediate future ofnisrael and a perpetual sorrow and tribulation on earth that would last until the end began by Jerusalem’s destruction and spreading of the jew into the earth all nations

so he was definately addressing this Jesus has just mentioned the temples desolation to come shortly and they asked two questions

“And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be?

and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

so it’s addressing the beginning of the tribulation for Israel , and also the signs of the times for the worlds end and his return

he really explains it well and separates the two events but it often is used only one scripture at a time to try to support ones prior view of post or preach tribulation rapture arguments. But if it’s examined he tells ofnjerusalems immediate destruction soon after his ascension in ad 67-70 and this calamity began spreading the jew out into the world carrying the law and its curse and also the gospel and its blessing of eternal life

he tells them how the rest of time is going to be in that explaination beginning with thier own demise from Israel and the terrible suffering ahead

so I’m not positive but I think I get what you are saying and agree when he returns there will always be tribulation for believers but it’s not what the world sees as tribulation because it will be going on as always and then suddenly there will be the lord come to gather his people and lay low his enemies

I feel as if the tribulation is more spiritual now and spread across the world so it’s not really as noticeable to each nation and man because we’ve grown dark as far as eyesight again and can’t see things his way

Well, my take on it is a little different, but I like your response regardless. I feel a lot of commonality with it. I really hate being different in my views, but I just have to say what I think the Lord has taught me. It's taken me many years, and listening to many positions, to come to where I am now.

Jesus came as a prophet and as Messiah to Israel. They were still under covenant of the Law, but they had backslidden. Whereas formerly Israel had sinned by turning to idols, in Jesus' time Israel turned to doing their own thing, and hiding beneath a veneer of religious observation.

Jesus anticipated his own murder, and predicted it. And he said that that generation, which would murder him, would come under great judgment. Jewish religion would be destroyed, and the Jewish Peole would not be restored until the end of the age.

In the meantime, other nations would be given the same chance Israel had been given. And when those nations fell into the same place of sin Israel had fallen, they too would become guilty, and suffer various tribulations, and would torment Christians.

So the Tribulation refers to Israel's punishment, and it would apply equally to Christian nations that fall into apostasy. And Christians need to prepare for this experience in nations, which fall, and where they will be persecuted.

This is the Great Tribulation we often talk about. But in its original sense it had only to do with Israel's punishment. If you read the end of Deuteronomy, you will see the blessings and curses of the Law. When nations as a whole fall into rebellion against God, sinning against the light that they had known, they come under terrible curses.

Christians need to expect to see this, and prepare for it. And we are the testimony against the very sin that leads to this terrible condition. Thanks for responding!

I suppose I will tackle this scripture. Acts 1:6 So when they had come together, they asked him, “Lord, will you at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?” 7 He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has fixed by his own authority.

The promise was made to restore the kingdom to Israel but the restoration of Israel in the 7 years of tribulation a bittersweet story. A man who will make a covenant with many allows Israel to build the temple which begins a nightmare for the world. But for Israel during the first 3 1/2 years it will seem like a blessing from God. it will be like the days of Noah and Lot. They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built ,married and given in marriage. He will bring the jews home to Israel and protect them for the first half of the tribulation. People will look at this man as the Messiah and in time beg him to be their King. But he has other plans and expects to be accepted as almighty god. Thirty days later he will place the abomination of desolation and then many will flee. The scriptures for the most part are still about Israel for God has not forgotten his people Israel.

The kingdom of God which is the 1000 year reign of the Lord is the time the true kingdom is restored to those who survive the tribulation.

yes brother I like the good spirit in your response. If you actually examine the earth the world is in a state of apostasy is sort of my position which nation is walking in the will of Christ ? I don’t see it myself it looks like a world of Babylon where this is occurring

“And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭12:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

So this puts the church in this position until he returns

“Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭5:8-9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

if you think of it around the world every year many Christians suffer greatly I remember ten years back or so seeing 21 Christians beheaded for their faith in a video and studied a bit found that tens of thousands die that way every year across the globe from Africa to the Middle East

I’m not looking to argue I think we are somewhat in the same area , but I think it began when this parable and word came to pass when they killed jesus thier kingdom of promise was sent to all people including then and all nations who believes

I’m going to assume because I recognize your understanding that you know the first part of this but what I’m saying is this event is what left israel desolate and sent thier kingdom to all people
After he sent all the prophets and law


“But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son. But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.

And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him. When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?

They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.

Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭21:37-43‬ ‭KJV‬‬

remember John warned them also before Christ appeared preaching about that very thing but they didn’t listen so they became desolate and the kingdom was taken and sent to all nations fulfilling Abraham’s promise

“Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. And the people asked him, saying, What shall we do then? He answereth and saith unto them, He that hath two coats, let him impart to him that hath none; and he that hath meat, let him do likewise. Then came also publicans to be baptized, and said unto him, Master, what shall we do? And he said unto them, Exact no more than that which is appointed you. And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages. And as the people were in expectation, and all men mused in their hearts of John, whether he were the Christ, or not;”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭3:7-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The fulfillment is through the gospel that’s what makes us Abraham’s children jew or gentile

“For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:27-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬


so we need to bear fruit meet for repentance like they wouldn’t but later those who relented were saved and those who rejected still lost

I think if we look at the question he was asked itnhekos understand what he’s answering both the immediate future ofnisrael and a perpetual sorrow and tribulation on earth that would last until the end began by Jerusalem’s destruction and spreading of the jew into the earth all nations

so he was definately addressing this Jesus has just mentioned the temples desolation to come shortly and they asked two questions

“And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be?

and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

so it’s addressing the beginning of the tribulation for Israel , and also the signs of the times for the worlds end and his return

he really explains it well and separates the two events but it often is used only one scripture at a time to try to support ones prior view of post or preach tribulation rapture arguments. But if it’s examined he tells ofnjerusalems immediate destruction soon after his ascension in ad 67-70 and this calamity began spreading the jew out into the world carrying the law and its curse and also the gospel and its blessing of eternal life

he tells them how the rest of time is going to be in that explaination beginning with thier own demise from Israel and the terrible suffering ahead

so I’m not positive but I think I get what you are saying and agree when he returns there will always be tribulation for believers but it’s not what the world sees as tribulation because it will be going on as always and then suddenly there will be the lord come to gather his people and lay low his enemies

I feel as if the tribulation is more spiritual now and spread across the world so it’s not really as noticeable to each nation and man because we’ve grown dark as far as eyesight again and can’t see things his way

I agree. The Gospel of Christ was taken from the nation of Israel and given to the Roman Kingdom, which ultimately became the European home of Christianity. But like Israel, European Christianity has gone South, and genuine Christians are suffering rejection by the very nations that once called themselves Christian.

So yes, Christians are still suffering, just as the original Jewish Christians suffered from their brother-Jews in Israel. "He came unto his own, but his own received him not. " We won't all get beheaded. But as the former Christian nations go from bad to worse, the Christian plight will become worse. We should expect that.

If you were a Jew, you would say something along the lines of how can it get any worse? Nazi persecution as well as in other European nations was horrific. Christians in Muslim nations, North Korea, and perhaps to a lesser extent, China also would wonder why other Christians imagine that there is some tribulation that is worse than they suffer. Lord Jesus warned us that in the world we will have tribulation. I think too much emphasis is placed on last days studies. We'd be better off getting ourselves ready for whatever is coming than speculating. We get ready by surrendering completely to the Lordship of Christ and allowing Him to lead us, guide us and enable the truth to set us free.

2 nation really one of god one of evil the battle is for souls not systems

2 nation really one of god one of evil the battle is for souls not systems

I continue to have a huge problem getting Christians to acknowledge the obvious, that in the Olivet Discourse Jesus focused not on the 2nd Coming as much as on the judgment to come against Israel in his own generation, and that Israel would go through a period of "great tribulation" from 70 AD, when the temple would be destroyed, to the end of the age. We call this the "Jewish Diaspora." Very few seem to be willing to acknowledge this, for the simple reason that modern prophetic circles do not favor that interpretation.

There is a tendency, sometimes, for people to want prophecy to be all about distant future events, so as to ignore what God is saying today.

Eze 12. 21 The word of the Lord came to me: 22 “Son of man, what is this proverb you have in the land of Israel: ‘The days go by and every vision comes to nothing’? 23 Say to them, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I am going to put an end to this proverb, and they will no longer quote it in Israel.’ Say to them, ‘The days are near when every vision will be fulfilled. 24 For there will be no more false visions or flattering divinations among the people of Israel. 25 But I the Lord will speak what I will, and it shall be fulfilled without delay. For in your days, you rebellious people, I will fulfill whatever I say, declares the Sovereign Lord .’ ”

And I think this fits well in the context of Jesus' Olivet Discourse in which some may have relegated his warning about the fall of Jerusalem to some distant, future generation, rather than something of immediate consequence, requiring immediate preparation. Jesus' Disciples were looking more to the Messianic coming at the end of the age than to the intervening judgment coming against Jerusalem and Jewish religion. They were looking for Israel's salvation even though Israel was presently ripe for judgment due to their hidden sin.

So I'm not surprised that when Jesus spoke of the fall of the temple that his Disciples immediately looked at a future outcome, as opposed to something more immediate that they had trouble grasping. Jesus clearly said all this would take place, ie the fall of the temple and its preliminary signs, in "this generation." Jesus did not ignore the question about his 2nd Coming, but he seemed to place it in the category of future expectation that provided a larger context, but not an explicit time frame.

Jesus seemed to focus the sense of his coming on a more imminent kind of divine coming in judgment in his own generation, destroying the temple, the city of Jerusalem, and producing an age-long period of judgment for the Jews until the time when Messiah would restore Israel. In the 3 synoptic Gospels, we see the same fall of the temple predicted in "this generation." And all 3 versions produce the exact same order of Jesus' address:

1) The temple will literally be destroyed.
2) Christians will be hated, Israel's religion will "grow cold," ignoring the Gospel testimony, and Jewish believers will have to endure for salvation.
3) The Jewish People will endure great tribulation, an age-long punishment.
4) The Abomination of Desolation, from Dan 9.26-27, or the desolation of the City and the Sanctuary.
5) The Jewish believers will flee to the mountains.
6) The temple will fall in "this generation."

Matt 24. 2 “Do you see all these things?” he asked. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”
...9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains...
21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again...
34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

Mark 13. 2 “Do you see all these great buildings?” replied Jesus. “Not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.” ...
12 “Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child. Children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. 13 Everyone will hate you because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.
14 “When you see ‘the abomination that causes desolation’ standing where it does not belong—let the reader understand—then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
15 Let no one on the housetop go down or enter the house to take anything out....
18 Pray that this will not take place in winter, 19 because those will be days of distress unequaled from the beginning, when God created the world, until now—and never to be equaled again.
...30 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

Luke 21. 6 “As for what you see here, the time will come when not one stone will be left on another; every one of them will be thrown down.”
12 “But before all this, they will seize you and persecute you. They will hand you over to synagogues and put you in prison, and you will be brought before kings and governors, and all on account of my name. 13 And so you will bear testimony to me. 14 But make up your mind not to worry beforehand how you will defend yourselves. 15 For I will give you words and wisdom that none of your adversaries will be able to resist or contradict. 16 You will be betrayed even by parents, brothers and sisters, relatives and friends, and they will put some of you to death. 17 Everyone will hate you because of me. 18 But not a hair of your head will perish. 19 Stand firm, and you will win life.
20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near.
21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city.
22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers!
There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled...
32 “Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened."

I say all this to make the point that the "abomination of desolation" mentioned in Matt 24 and Mark 13 are sandwiched between #2 and #5, between the condition of Israel and of the Jewish Church and the need for believers to flee to the mountains. And in Luke 21 Luke uses a reference to Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, in place of the "abomination of desolation," again sandwiched between #2 and #5.

This for me positively identifies the AoD with the Roman encirclement of Jerusalem in 66-70 AD. It was after 66 AD that Jewish believers fled to Pella in the mountains. And it was directly before the Romans came to encircle Jerusalem that God found unbelieving Israel to be out of compliance with their covenant with God, their religion growing cold, and their turning to persecute believers in Jesus.

Therefore, this Address is all about a prophetic judgment Jesus was proclaiming against Israel in the same vein that the Prophets before him declared an imminent judgment upon Israel for their sins, when the Babylonians were about to destroy Jerusalem.

I continue to have a huge problem getting Christians to acknowledge the obvious, that in the Olivet Discourse Jesus focused not on the 2nd Coming as much as on the judgment to come against Israel in his own generation, and that Israel would go through a period of "great tribulation" from 70 AD, when the temple would be destroyed, to the end of the age. We call this the "Jewish Diaspora." Very few seem to be willing to acknowledge this, for the simple reason that modern prophetic circles do not favor that interpretation.

Just to answer your questions--not to settle the matters--I suggest my reasoning follows a general sense from Scriptures that we are not to prognosticate too much about the future, particularly when that may be obscuring what God is telling us to do now.

Deut 18. 10 Let no one be found among you who sacrifices their son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, 11 or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead.

Acts 1. 7 He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority."

There is a tendency, sometimes, for people to want prophecy to be all about distant future events, so as to ignore what God is saying today.

Eze 12. 21 The word of the Lord came to me: 22 “Son of man, what is this proverb you have in the land of Israel: ‘The days go by and every vision comes to nothing’? 23 Say to them, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I am going to put an end to this proverb, and they will no longer quote it in Israel.’ Say to them, ‘The days are near when every vision will be fulfilled. 24 For there will be no more false visions or flattering divinations among the people of Israel. 25 But I the Lord will speak what I will, and it shall be fulfilled without delay. For in your days, you rebellious people, I will fulfill whatever I say, declares the Sovereign Lord .’ ”

And I think this fits well in the context of Jesus' Olivet Discourse in which some may have relegated his warning about the fall of Jerusalem to some distant, future generation, rather than something of immediate consequence, requiring immediate preparation. Jesus' Disciples were looking more to the Messianic coming at the end of the age than to the intervening judgment coming against Jerusalem and Jewish religion. They were looking for Israel's salvation even though Israel was presently ripe for judgment due to their hidden sin.

So I'm not surprised that when Jesus spoke of the fall of the temple that his Disciples immediately looked at a future outcome, as opposed to something more immediate that they had trouble grasping. Jesus clearly said all this would take place, ie the fall of the temple and its preliminary signs, in "this generation." Jesus did not ignore the question about his 2nd Coming, but he seemed to place it in the category of future expectation that provided a larger context, but not an explicit time frame.

Jesus seemed to focus the sense of his coming on a more imminent kind of divine coming in judgment in his own generation, destroying the temple, the city of Jerusalem, and producing an age-long period of judgment for the Jews until the time when Messiah would restore Israel. In the 3 synoptic Gospels, we see the same fall of the temple predicted in "this generation." And all 3 versions produce the exact same order of Jesus' address:

1) The temple will literally be destroyed.
2) Christians will be hated, Israel's religion will "grow cold," ignoring the Gospel testimony, and Jewish believers will have to endure for salvation.
3) The Jewish People will endure great tribulation, an age-long punishment.
4) The Abomination of Desolation, from Dan 9.26-27, or the desolation of the City and the Sanctuary.
5) The Jewish believers will flee to the mountains.
6) The temple will fall in "this generation."

Matt 24. 2 “Do you see all these things?” he asked. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”
...9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains...
21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again...
34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

Mark 13. 2 “Do you see all these great buildings?” replied Jesus. “Not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.” ...
12 “Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child. Children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. 13 Everyone will hate you because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.
14 “When you see ‘the abomination that causes desolation’ standing where it does not belong—let the reader understand—then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
15 Let no one on the housetop go down or enter the house to take anything out....
18 Pray that this will not take place in winter, 19 because those will be days of distress unequaled from the beginning, when God created the world, until now—and never to be equaled again.
...30 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

Luke 21. 6 “As for what you see here, the time will come when not one stone will be left on another; every one of them will be thrown down.”
12 “But before all this, they will seize you and persecute you. They will hand you over to synagogues and put you in prison, and you will be brought before kings and governors, and all on account of my name. 13 And so you will bear testimony to me. 14 But make up your mind not to worry beforehand how you will defend yourselves. 15 For I will give you words and wisdom that none of your adversaries will be able to resist or contradict. 16 You will be betrayed even by parents, brothers and sisters, relatives and friends, and they will put some of you to death. 17 Everyone will hate you because of me. 18 But not a hair of your head will perish. 19 Stand firm, and you will win life.
20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near.
21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city.
22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers!
There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled...
32 “Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened."

I say all this to make the point that the "abomination of desolation" mentioned in Matt 24 and Mark 13 are sandwiched between #2 and #5, between the condition of Israel and of the Jewish Church and the need for believers to flee to the mountains. And in Luke 21 Luke uses a reference to Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, in place of the "abomination of desolation," again sandwiched between #2 and #5.

This for me positively identifies the AoD with the Roman encirclement of Jerusalem in 66-70 AD. It was after 66 AD that Jewish believers fled to Pella in the mountains. And it was directly before the Romans came to encircle Jerusalem that God found unbelieving Israel to be out of compliance with their covenant with God, their religion growing cold, and their turning to persecute believers in Jesus.

Therefore, this Address is all about a prophetic judgment Jesus was proclaiming against Israel in the same vein that the Prophets before him declared an imminent judgment upon Israel for their sins, when the Babylonians were about to destroy Jerusalem.