How the Pre-Trib Rapture Became Popular in the Modern Church

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TheDivineWatermark

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#81
Lucy-Pevensie said:
An early, secret 7-year party in heaven. (not in scripture)
A party which excludes martyrs who are beheaded for resisiting God's enemy.
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What "party"?

Do you mean "the 24 elders" falling down at His feet to worship Him and cast their "stephanon/crowns" before the throne? (Rev4:10 , 5:14, etc)





Again, "the wedding FEAST / SUPPER / FESTIVITIES" only commences upon His "RETURN" to the earth (and IS the earthly MK age--at least its inauguration);

NO "SAINTS" will be missing from that!! (those "saints" who come to faith FOLLOWING "our Rapture" will either be "still-living" to enter the MK in their mortal bodies [capable of reproducing / bearing children in the MK age], or if they died during the Trib years, will be "resurrected [definition: 'to stand again' (on the earth)]" and thus will not miss out either!)

I'm unsure why you believe any "saints" (of ALL time periods) will MISS OUT on the "FESTIVITIES"... pre-tribbers do not espouse such an idea as you are suggesting of the pre-trib view (a "strawman" viewpoint of it)
 
Lucy-Pevensie

Lucy-Pevensie

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#82
TheDivineWatermark said:
Regarding Hebrews 9:27-28 -

--re: the word "shall appear [passive; G3708]": out of the TOTAL 684x this word is used in the NT, this word is only used 10x in the passive (as here) with regard to Jesus...

--5x of which referred to His physical [glorified Body's] presence on the earth with His disciples [not the entire world--only to carefully-chosen witnesses] FOLLOWING His death and resurrection;

--the other 5x referring to His having appeared to one particular person [who I believe is a TYPE of the future 144,000!] FROM [His position IN] HEAVEN--not bodily present on the earth [ALSO FOLLOWING His death and resurrection];

--every one of those 10x speaks of that which took place AFTER His "death and resurrection";

--NONE of those 10x speaks of anything which took place BEFORE His "death and resurrection"





["pre-tribbers" believe that Jesus is only "RETURNING" ONCE... at the time of His Second Coming to the earth (Rev19)--In Scripture, the word "RETURN" (re: Jesus) is set in the CONTEXT of His Second Coming to the earth (not "our Rapture")]
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The plain teaching of scripture is that the resurrection occurs at the time Jesus is revealed in glory.
His return to earth is visible and undeniable to all.

Are you denying that the harpazo occurs at the time of the resurrection?

Or are you claiming that the resurrection occurs before the return of Jesus?
 
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TheDivineWatermark

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#83
^ L-P , I've addressed those issues in about a thousand posts :D



Still, I do not recall your answer as to WHY the "2W" are resurrected from the dead (and ascend up into Heaven, no less!) at the "6th Trumpet / 2nd Woe," at a time DISTINCT from when all other saints will be "resurrected".

WHY IS THIS, according to your view??





[just tryin' to make a simple, straightforward post, per your earlier request / comment on that point]
 
Lucy-Pevensie

Lucy-Pevensie

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#85
TheDivineWatermark said:
^ L-P , I've addressed those issues in about a thousand posts :D



Still, I do not recall your answer as to WHY the "2W" are resurrected from the dead (and ascend up into Heaven, no less!) at the "6th Trumpet / 2nd Woe," at a time DISTINCT from when all other saints will be "resurrected".

WHY IS THIS, according to your view??





[just tryin' to make a simple, straightforward post, per your earlier request / comment on that point]
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I don't recall you asking that. I normally ignore your sloppy posts.
 
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TheDivineWatermark

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#86
[ @Lucy-Pevensie 's Post #84 ] "You change the story every time you are cornered." - L-P


I would say I have NEVER changed my story, but have consistently stated the same thing (on this Subject) from the time I started posting on it.



[I see you have no answer to the question on WHY the "2W" are resurrected from the dead and ascend up into Heaven at the "6th Trumpet events / 2nd Woe" at a time DISTINCT from when ALL other saints will be... ; it doesn't jive with the idea you presented about "resurrection" in your earlier post, so I can see why you'd like to avoid the question]
 
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Noteworthy

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ewq1938 said:
John 16:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them [tereo ek] from the evil one.

Jesus did not pray that God would take people out of this world to keep them from the evil one. That means Jesus does not approve of rapturing people out of this world to protect them from the evil one. Since Jesus does not approve of that then why do you (anyone reading that believes in a pre-trib rapture that takes people out of this world to keep them from the evil one) support such a concept?

No one is going to be taken out of the world so they can be "kept" from the evil one. That's not how God does things. The rapture is not an exception to that.

Anyone teaching a Pre-trib rapture is going directly against the teaching of Jesus in the above verse.
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That verse is John 17:15, not John 16:15. Regardless, Jesus is praying about the disciples there.

No one is saying, "...rapturing people out of this world to protect them from the evil one..." The scriptures prove that the church, the believers, do not suffer the wrath of God during the seven year Tribulation period.
 
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TheDivineWatermark

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#88
Noteworthy said:
That verse is John 17:15, not John 16:15. Regardless, Jesus is praying about the disciples there.
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Completely agree. (y)

When one reads the entire section, that is indeed the conclusion one must come to (especially as it pertains to the "ek" word ewq1938 is referring to in that context)
 
DavidTree

DavidTree

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Noteworthy said:
That verse is John 17:15, not John 16:15. Regardless, Jesus is praying about the disciples there.

No one is saying, "...rapturing people out of this world to protect them from the evil one..." The scriptures prove that the church, the believers, do not suffer the wrath of God during the seven year Tribulation period.
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Jesus is only praying for His Disciples in John 17:15 ???

If, you believe this you commit a very serious error of 'taking away' from what God said.

Please refer yourself to all of chapter 17 where our Lord prayed this:

“I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word.....

Our Lord Jesus Christ prayed for His Bride/His Elect/His Church, past present and future, in John ch 17.

What our Lord prayed for one He prayed for ALL of His in John 17.
 
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TheDivineWatermark

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#90
^ Again, many people will be coming to faith FOLLOWING "our Rapture" (Jesus never promised to "harpazo" THEM out of [ek] the world--The "RAPTURE / SNATCH / CAUGHT UP / harpazo [G726]" pertains SOLELY TO "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" [Eph1:20-23 WHEN (as to its existence)] who ALONE was promised this!!--See again the IDENTITY of the "A CHASTE VIRGIN [SINGULAR]" whom Paul said he is tasked to "PRESENT" [after having been "betrothed"] to ONE HUSBAND, as stated in 2Cor11:2<--how so??)





[whereas "the 12" were told they will "sit on twelve thrones, judgING the twelve tribes of Israel" --Matt19:28 (see M25:31-34 for its TIMING) / Lk22:30 (etc)]
 
DavidTree

DavidTree

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TheDivineWatermark said:
^ Again, many people will be coming to faith FOLLOWING "our Rapture" (Jesus never promised to "harpazo" THEM out of the world--The "RAPTURE / SNATCH / CAUGHT UP / harpazo [G726]" pertains SOLELY TO "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" [Eph1:20-23 WHEN (as to its existence)] who ALONE was promised this!!--See again the IDENTITY of the "A CHASTE VIRGIN [SINGULAR]" whom Paul said he is tasked to "PRESENT" to ONE HUSBAND, as stated in 2Cor11:2<--how so??)
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Again, you 'add to and take away' from the word of our Lord Jesus Christ.

i notice you are full of words in mans wisdom but these words are unable to conform to His Likeness made in His Image in Jesus Christ.

Read again the Scripture that is the Express Image of God in Jesus Christ our Lord - 'the Word that became flesh'.

Present yourself approved to God, an unashamed workman who accurately handles the word of truth.
But avoid irreverent, empty chatter, which will only lead to more ungodliness, and the talk of such men will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have deviated from the truth.
They say that the resurrection has already occurred, and they undermine the faith of some.
2 Timothy 2: 15 -18

Not 'Living Stone' will be left behind. His Bride is Not Raptured until AFTER the First Resurrection.
 
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TheDivineWatermark

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#92
^ @DavidTree , "[re: resurrection] but EACH [a word meaning 'of more than two'] IN HIS OWN ORDER / RANK" (meaning, there is an ORDER / RANK to it, not that there remains only ONE at ONE SINGULAR point in time);

--"the resurrection the first [ADJECTIVE; G4413]" (Rev20:6) is not saying "this is the first time saints are being resurrected"--the "2W" will have been resurrected from the dead (and ascend up into Heaven) at the "6th Trumpet [events] / 2nd Woe," at a time-slot ENTIRELY DISTINCT from when all OTHER saints will be "resurrected"--But YOUR "post-trib rapture" viewpoint cannot account for this point.
What say you, to this??
 
DavidTree

DavidTree

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TheDivineWatermark said:
^ @DavidTree , "[re: resurrection] but EACH [a word meaning 'of more than two'] IN HIS OWN ORDER / RANK" (meaning, there is an ORDER / RANK to it, not that there remains only ONE at ONE SINGULAR point in time);

--"the resurrection the first [ADJECTIVE; G4413]" (Rev20:6) is not saying "this is the first time saints are being resurrected"--the "2W" will have been resurrected from the dead (and ascend up into Heaven) at the "6th Trumpet [events] / 2nd Woe," at a time-slot ENTIRELY DISTINCT from when all OTHER saints will be "resurrected"--But YOUR "post-trib rapture" viewpoint cannot account for this point.
What say you, to this??
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lol x100000000

Keep adding to and taking away - your digging a big hole for yourself and others who follow

There is one Second Coming of our King/the Bridegroom/ for His Bride/His Living Stones/His Elect

There is only one FIRST Resurrection and one Rature that comes AFTER the Ressurection. just as Scripture says: 1 Thess 4, 2 Thess 2
and Revelation and the Gospels.
 
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TheDivineWatermark

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^ @DavidTree , I would appreciate your answering the question I posed earlier:

WHY are the "2W" resurrected from the dead (and ascend up into Heaven) at the "6th Trumpet [events] / 2nd Woe," at a time-slot COMPLETELY DISTINCT from when all other saints will be resurrected??

(unless you believe all saints ARE "resurrected" at the "6th Trumpet / 2nd Woe" time-slot... DO YOU??)




[note to readers: the above Q is based on the text of Rev11:11,12,14,15]
 
CS1

CS1

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GaryA said:
The mentioned passage does not say or indicate anything regarding a pre-trib rapture or special trip to heaven - that "connection" is only made in the minds of those who want so badly to believe it.
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that is your opinion. and I choose not to speak with youanymore. You are rude and arrogant.
 
CS1

CS1

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DavidTree said:
1 Thess 4:13 18 is beautiful and TRUE just as in the Gospels, the Apostles letters to His Church and Revelation.

No where can you or anyone find pre-trib rapture. But we all see Jesus Second Coming for His Bride/the Church/His Elect.

There is no FIRST Resurrection taking place in Revelation chapters 1, 2 and 3 - only through sin by adding to God's Word.

The FIRST Resurrection that takes place in 1 Thessalonians chapter 4 also is recorded by our Lord Jesus Christ in Revelation.

Remember dear Brother this: 1 Thessalonians 4:13 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him.
By the word of the Lord.........verse 14

Your words are your words - Do Not add your words to Scripture - this is an act of pride.

Every word of God is flawless;
He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him.
Do not add to His words,
lest He rebuke you and prove you a liar. Proverbs 30: 5-6

Now go find, by the word of the Lord, the FIRST Resurrection in Revelation, just as the word of the Lord spoke it in (1 Thess 4: 13-18).
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Thank you but I disagree, I did not add works just Like I did not add the word Trinity to the Bible it is a concept seen in the word of God which I believe is truth, Yet the word Rapture is from the Latin word rapture. The pre-trib and mid-trib are both supported by Scripture yet, the Church has always held to the soon coming of the Lord's expectation.

As I said before John chapter 14:1-4 and the context of a wedding, and Jesu the BrideGroom and we, HIS Bride, the taking of the Bride is there in the word of God.
 
DavidTree

DavidTree

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TheDivineWatermark said:
^ @DavidTree , I would appreciate your answering the question I posed earlier:

WHY are the "2W" resurrected from the dead (and ascend up into Heaven) at the "6th Trumpet [events] / 2nd Woe," at a time-slot COMPLETELY DISTINCT from when all other saints will be resurrected??

(unless you believe all saints ARE "resurrected" at the "6th Trumpet / 2nd Woe" time-slot... DO YOU??)




[note to readers: the above Q is based on the text of Rev11:11,12,14,15]
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i SEE those Two Witnesses, who are killed by the Beast and then are resurrected from death and then Caught Up to God.

i SEE the FIRST Resurrection in the Gospels, in the Jesus Love Letters to His Bride through the Apostles, and in Revelation.

i SEE that Christ leaves no 'Living Stone' behind in Revelation and the First resurrection, and AFTER that the Rapture.
 
DavidTree

DavidTree

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CS1 said:
that is your opinion. and I choose not to speak with youanymore. You are rude and arrogant.
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You do not like truth - to you that is arrogant because it goes against your opinion

God's word is not subject to our opinions - the Scripture cannot lie.
 
CS1

CS1

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#99
Lucy-Pevensie said:
Pretrib is focussed on what the teachers of that doctrine believe to be our entitlement
An early, secret 7-year party in heaven. (not in scripture)
A party which excludes martyrs who are beheaded for resisiting God's enemy.
A party which abandons the remnant of Israel.
Self-centred.

Bible prophecy is focussed on the revelation in glory of Jesus before the whole world.
God centred.
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there is nothing secret about the Rapture we have been told Jesus is coming. There is no Party it is called the Wedding Feast

it is no excluding it is the coming together of HIS Bride. Said By Jesu in John 14, Matthew 24-24 Ithess 4:13-18 1corth 15:50-57
REV Chapter 1-3
 
DavidTree

DavidTree

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#100
CS1 said:
Thank you but I disagree, I did not add works just Like I did not add the word Trinity to the Bible it is a concept seen in the word of God which I believe is truth, Yet the word Rapture is from the Latin word rapture. The pre-trib and mid-trib are both supported by Scripture yet, the Church has always held to the soon coming of the Lord's expectation.

As I said before John chapter 14:1-4 and the context of a wedding, and Jesu the BrideGroom and we, HIS Bride, the taking of the Bride is there in the word of God.
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ONLY one Second Coming for His Bride just as Jesus said in John chapters 14 & 17

I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. John 14: 18

Peace I leave with you; My peace I give to you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled; do not be afraid. You heard Me say, ‘I am going away, and I am coming back to you. John 14: 27-28

I will not speak with you much longer, for the prince of this world is coming, and he has no claim on Me.

Antichrist comes before the Lord Returns - 2 Thessalonians 2 and John 2:18 and Revelation

The Scripture cannot lie

 
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