What is your understanding of this text?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
56,015
26,143
113
#41


1 John 4:18 :)
 
Sep 10, 2021
7
2
3
#43
Psalm 104
Easy-to-Read Version
104 My soul, praise the Lord!
Lord my God, you are very great!
You are clothed with glory and honor.
2 You wear light like a robe.
You spread out the skies like a curtain.
3 You built your home above them.[a]
You use the thick clouds like a chariot
and ride across the sky on the wings of the wind.
4 You make the winds your messengers
and flames of fire your servants.
5 You built the earth on its foundations,
so it can never be moved.
6 You covered it with water like a blanket.
The water covered even the mountains.
7 But you gave the command, and the water turned back.
You shouted at the water, and it rushed away.
8 The water flowed down from the mountains into the valleys,
to the places you made for it.
9 You set the limits for the seas,
and the water will never again rise to cover the earth.


10 Lord, you cause water to flow from springs into the streams
that flow down between the mountains.
11 The streams provide water for all the wild animals.
Even the wild donkeys come there to drink.
12 Wild birds come to live by the pools;
they sing in the branches of nearby trees.
13 You send rain down on the mountains.
The earth gets everything it needs from what you have made.
14 You make the grass grow to feed the animals.
You provide plants for the crops we grow—
the plants that give us food from the earth.
15 You give us the wine that makes us happy,
the oil that makes our skin soft,[c]
and the food that makes us strong.


16 The great cedar trees of Lebanon belong to the Lord.
He planted them and gives them the water they need.
17 That’s where the birds make their nests,
and the storks live in the fir trees.
18 The high mountains are a home for wild goats.
The large rocks are hiding places for rock badgers.


19 Lord, you made the moon to show us when the festivals begin.
And the sun always knows when to set.
20 You made darkness to be the night—
the time when wild animals come out and roam around.
21 Lions roar as they attack,
as if they are asking God for the food he gives them.
22 When the sun rises, they leave
and go back to their dens to rest.
23 Then people go out to do their work,
and they work until evening.


24 Lord, you created so many things!
With your wisdom you made them all.
The earth is full of the living things you made.
25 Look at the ocean, so big and wide!
It is filled with all kinds of sea life.
There are creatures large and small—too many to count!
26 Ships sail over the ocean,
and playing there is Leviathan,[d]
the great sea creature you made.


27 Lord, all living things depend on you.
You give them food at the right time.
28 You give it, and they eat it.
They are filled with good food from your open hands.
29 When you turn away from them,
they become frightened.
When you take away their breath,[e]
they die, and their bodies return to the dust.
30 But when you send out your life-giving breath,[f]
things come alive, and the world is like new again!


31 May the Lord’s glory continue forever!
May the Lord enjoy what he made.
32 He just looks at the earth, and it trembles.
He just touches the mountains, and smoke rises from them.


33 I will sing to the Lord for the rest of my life.
I will sing praises to my God as long as I live.
34 May my words be pleasing to him.
The Lord is the one who makes me happy.
35 I wish sinners would disappear from the earth.
I wish the wicked would be gone forever.


My soul, praise the Lord!
Praise the Lord!
Verses 5 through 9 show conclusively that Noah's flood was not global.

Verses 29-30 here is a bad paraphrase. All the more accurate translations have it that God kills (takes away the breath) of animals and replaces them on a scale of the "face of the earth." These two verses predict the 5 major extinction events found in the geologic column.
See the KJ, NIV, ESV, NASV, etc. Ask; can these events take place in a 24hr period?
 
Sep 10, 2021
7
2
3
#44
Verses 5 through 9 show conclusively that Noah's flood was not global.

Verses 29-30 here is a bad paraphrase. All the more accurate translations have it that God kills (takes away the breath) of animals and replaces them on a scale of the "face of the earth." These two verses predict the 5 major extinction events found in the geologic column.
See the KJ, NIV, ESV, NASV, etc. Ask; can these events take place in a 24hr period?
(Since "bara" is used this verse can only be referring to the 5th or 6th creation "yom" before God rested from creating.)
 
P

pottersclay

Guest
#45
What is your understanding of this text?

I believe the pslams shows that God created....there was no evolution, or billions of years of ware and tare.
Creation by design with purpose spoken.
 
O

Omegatime

Guest
#46
Mocks those who believe in climate change
 
Sep 10, 2021
7
2
3
#47
What is your understanding of this text?

I believe the pslams shows that God created....there was no evolution, or billions of years of ware and tare.
Creation by design with purpose spoken.
I agree there was no evolution.., God created. In verse 30, badly translated in this paraphrase, "the radical creation verb "bara" is used. That is what God is resting from, now, but it is used in this verse, placing this verse's reference in the 5th or 6th "yom" during the Genesis creation account before the beginning of the 7th yom of rest, which continues to this day and we are invited to join him in "that" (Hebrews 4:1-9) rest from "bara" creation. The 7th yom is clearly thousands of years old and continuing. The YEC model is poor exegesis, ignoring Hebrew alternatives, conventions and practices, as well as Biblical examples. I believe the Bible teaches old earth, not the least of which are these verses in psalm 104, that are, I suggest, inconceivable to place in a 24 hr. yom. I'll spend a little time on it if anyone is interested.
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
7,902
1,458
113
67
Brighton, MI
#48
Verses 5 through 9 show conclusively that Noah's flood was not global.

Verses 29-30 here is a bad paraphrase. All the more accurate translations have it that God kills (takes away the breath) of animals and replaces them on a scale of the "face of the earth." These two verses predict the 5 major extinction events found in the geologic column.
See the KJ, NIV, ESV, NASV, etc. Ask; can these events take place in a 24hr period?
I have always understood verses 5-9 to be the waters falling back from the land at creation.

That is just my humble opinion.
 
P

pottersclay

Guest
#50
I agree there was no evolution.., God created. In verse 30, badly translated in this paraphrase, "the radical creation verb "bara" is used. That is what God is resting from, now, but it is used in this verse, placing this verse's reference in the 5th or 6th "yom" during the Genesis creation account before the beginning of the 7th yom of rest, which continues to this day and we are invited to join him in "that" (Hebrews 4:1-9) rest from "bara" creation. The 7th yom is clearly thousands of years old and continuing. The YEC model is poor exegesis, ignoring Hebrew alternatives, conventions and practices, as well as Biblical examples. I believe the Bible teaches old earth, not the least of which are these verses in psalm 104, that are, I suggest, inconceivable to place in a 24 hr. yom. I'll spend a little time on it if anyone is interested.
Please do😊
 
Sep 10, 2021
7
2
3
#51
I have always understood verses 5-9 to be the waters falling back from the land at creation.

That is just my humble opinion.
And mine. Verse 5 establishes that this is about creation, the sequence through verse 9 flows, in context, without interruption. The waters of verse 9 are clearly the waters established in verse 6.
 
Sep 10, 2021
7
2
3
#52
Deuteronomy 33:15-"ancient mountains." Habakkuk 3:6-"ancient mountains," "age old hills." Psalm 68:33-"ancient skies."
Judges 5:21-"ancient river."

If the universe is 6000 years old then Biblical "ancient" means, say, 3000 years before these verses were written. What then of the two thousand years waiting for Jesus to come "quickly?" Just a thought, this.

This is more to the point; In Daniel we see an example of the Hebrew word for "Father" used to denote "Grandfather." Many people groups employ this idiom. The hebrew word for "father" is the same Hebrew word used to say "ancestor." Note also that the Biblical Chronologies do not match each other. This is not error. There are two possible reasons for that. Traditionally, people of poor character were left out of chronologies. Also, Chronologies are given for different purposes. Who is it that demands that the chronologies used by Anglican Archbishop Ussher to arrive at a six thousand year old earth were in fact absolutely complete, and/or that "Father" was absolutely the correct Hebrew meaning? "When Seth had lived 105 years he became the ancestor of Enosh," is a perfectly legitimate translation. Who dogmatically constrains it to one generation? For what reasons?

A fact not often referenced is that in an "old earth," "yom=age" model, the universe, and the earth are old, but human beings are not.
They are, in fact, the youngest things of creation. We do not need very many bad characters left out of the chronologies to fit the observations. Still, a perusal of the Noah's flood account allows for very many bad characters, as well as in following times.

It has recently become a popular thing for young earth Christians to assert that "God created with an appearance of age." Note that this acknowledges that the earth "appears" old. This would be an example; The Eniwetok coral shows layers bearing pollen from seed bearing plants and shrubs occurring at 300ft., 1000ft., and 2780ft., when the coral must have been exposed to air during ice ages when sea levels were low enough to expose them. Did God (who "cannot lie") place those things to create an appearance of age, with a number of young earth Christians figuring it out nonetheless, in spite of God's efforts? I am not employing sarcasm here towards my Christian brothers and sisters, rather, I believe the question is warranted.
 
Sep 10, 2021
7
2
3
#53
Deuteronomy 33:15-"ancient mountains." Habakkuk 3:6-"ancient mountains," "age old hills." Psalm 68:33-"ancient skies."
Judges 5:21-"ancient river."

If the universe is 6000 years old then Biblical "ancient" means, say, 3000 years before these verses were written. What then of the two thousand years waiting for Jesus to come "quickly?" Just a thought, this.

This is more to the point; In Daniel we see an example of the Hebrew word for "Father" used to denote "Grandfather." Many people groups employ this idiom. The hebrew word for "father" is the same Hebrew word used to say "ancestor." Note also that the Biblical Chronologies do not match each other. This is not error. There are two possible reasons for that. Traditionally, people of poor character were left out of chronologies. Also, Chronologies are given for different purposes. Who is it that demands that the chronologies used by Anglican Archbishop Ussher to arrive at a six thousand year old earth were in fact absolutely complete, and/or that "Father" was absolutely the correct Hebrew meaning? "When Seth had lived 105 years he became the ancestor of Enosh," is a perfectly legitimate translation. Who dogmatically constrains it to one generation? For what reasons?

A fact not often referenced is that in an "old earth," "yom=age" model, the universe, and the earth are old, but human beings are not.
They are, in fact, the youngest things of creation. We do not need very many bad characters left out of the chronologies to fit the observations. Still, a perusal of the Noah's flood account allows for very many bad characters, as well as in following times.

It has recently become a popular thing for young earth Christians to assert that "God created with an appearance of age." Note that this acknowledges that the earth "appears" old. This would be an example; The Eniwetok coral shows layers bearing pollen from seed bearing plants and shrubs occurring at 300ft., 1000ft., and 2780ft., when the coral must have been exposed to air during ice ages when sea levels were low enough to expose them. Did God (who "cannot lie") place those things to create an appearance of age, with a number of young earth Christians figuring it out nonetheless, in spite of God's efforts? I am not employing sarcasm here towards my Christian brothers and sisters, rather, I believe the question is warranted.

It occurs to me to Biblically support my appeal to "observations." I submit that it is a Biblical instruction to do so, as in the following:

Psalm 19:1-4 "The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands. Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they display knowledge. There is no speech or language where their voice is not heard."
("Knowledge" is displayed, we should thus observe it.)

Isaiah 40:21 "Do you not know? Have you not heard? Has it not been told to you from the beginning? Have you not understood since the earth was founded?"

Job 36:24,25 "Remember to extol his work, which men have praised in song. All mankind has seen it."

Romans 1:20 "For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities-His eternal power and divine nature- have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse."
(what excuse for not observing "what has been made"?)

Proverbs6:6 "Go to the ant thou sluggard; consider it's ways and be wise."

Isaiah 51:6 "Lift up your eyes to the heavens, look at the earth beneath."

Psalm 77:12 "I will meditate on all your works."

Psalm 111:2 Great are the works of the Lord: they are pondered by all who delight in them."

Job 12:7 "but ask the animals, and they will teach you, or the birds of the air, and they will teach you: or speak to the earth, and it will teach you."

I submit that these verses confirm our Biblical responsibility to look to creation for accurate information. This sometimes called "science." These verses are why some have posited 2 books of revelation; the Bible, and creation itself. Both "science" and "theology" are imperfect human "practices." We must be careful in each. Very careful.
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
7,902
1,458
113
67
Brighton, MI
#55
https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1801104.htm
https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/210228.htm


  1. Job 38:4
    Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
  2. Psalm 82:5
    They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.
    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
  3. Psalm 104:5
    Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever.
    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
  4. Proverbs 8:29
    When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:
    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
  5. Isaiah 24:18
    And it shall come to pass, that he who fleeth from the noise of the fear shall fall into the pit; and he that cometh up out of the midst of the pit shall be taken in the snare: for the windows from on high are open, and the foundations of the earth do shake.
    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
  6. Isaiah 40:21
    Have ye not known? have ye not heard? hath it not been told you from the beginning? have ye not understood from the foundations of the earth?
    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
  7. Isaiah 51:13
    And forgettest the Lord thy maker, that hath stretched forth the heavens, and laid the foundations of the earth; and hast feared continually every day because of the fury of the oppressor, as if he were ready to destroy? and where is the fury of the oppressor?
    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
  8. Isaiah 51:16
    And I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, Thou art my people.
    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
  9. Jeremiah 31:37
    Thus saith the Lord; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the Lord.
    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
  10. Micah 6:2
    Hear ye, O mountains, the Lord's controversy, and ye strong foundations of the earth: for the Lord hath a controversy with his people, and he will plead with Israel.
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
7,902
1,458
113
67
Brighton, MI
#56
Proverbs 8:29
I was there when he set the limits on the sea to make it stop where he said. I was there when he laid the foundations of the earth.
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
7,902
1,458
113
67
Brighton, MI
#57
And mine. Verse 5 establishes that this is about creation, the sequence through verse 9 flows, in context, without interruption. The waters of verse 9 are clearly the waters established in verse 6.
Historically in Judaism and Christianity it has been interpreted as creation.
 
Sep 10, 2021
7
2
3
#58
Thanks for the links Learner. Reminding me of the libraries of competing explanations provided by so many for each word written in the Bible, which teaches that it, alone, is enough. I always try to remember that it was, many assume, written for all those who existed across 4,000 years or so, so far. I often, when contemplating the accomplished and erudite scholarship behind contradictory views, remind myself that "If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." Since I am an amateur, with no credentials, that is very appealing. My goal is to be a decent Berean. I have opinions. I'm not adverse to changing them, if it seems necessary.

Reading your links, in the (apparently) SDA link I found a surmise that the light in Genesis 1:3 came from God himself. That has been, it seems, the common view. My view is different. It seems that of the 3 heavens a Hebrew speaker envisions the second one is the realm of the sun, moon, stars, and planets. Since verse 1 includes the plural heavens, how can the celestial bodies not have existed, since the angels, who inhabit the third, were watching and applauding, (Job 38:7, and "stars" exist in this verse, as well, who are not angels). If the celestial bodies existed, and verse 1 says they did (does it not?) then light existed. In verse 2 darkness is localized at the surface, the face of the deep. I suggest Job 38:9 resolves the issue (As does Hugh Ross). Verse 8 could reference the water planet, and verse 9 says;
"-when I made clouds its garment and thick darkness its swaddling band" (ESV). Here God is making the earth dark with clouds, which seems wholly unnecessary if light did not yet exist.
-- What do you think?
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
7,902
1,458
113
67
Brighton, MI
#59
Thanks for the links Learner. Reminding me of the libraries of competing explanations provided by so many for each word written in the Bible, which teaches that it, alone, is enough. I always try to remember that it was, many assume, written for all those who existed across 4,000 years or so, so far. I often, when contemplating the accomplished and erudite scholarship behind contradictory views, remind myself that "If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." Since I am an amateur, with no credentials, that is very appealing. My goal is to be a decent Berean. I have opinions. I'm not adverse to changing them, if it seems necessary.

Reading your links, in the (apparently) SDA link I found a surmise that the light in Genesis 1:3 came from God himself. That has been, it seems, the common view. My view is different. It seems that of the 3 heavens a Hebrew speaker envisions the second one is the realm of the sun, moon, stars, and planets. Since verse 1 includes the plural heavens, how can the celestial bodies not have existed, since the angels, who inhabit the third, were watching and applauding, (Job 38:7, and "stars" exist in this verse, as well, who are not angels). If the celestial bodies existed, and verse 1 says they did (does it not?) then light existed. In verse 2 darkness is localized at the surface, the face of the deep. I suggest Job 38:9 resolves the issue (As does Hugh Ross). Verse 8 could reference the water planet, and verse 9 says;
"-when I made clouds its garment and thick darkness its swaddling band" (ESV). Here God is making the earth dark with clouds, which seems wholly unnecessary if light did not yet exist.
-- What do you think?
I think light was created on day one, the land was obscured by fog and one day four the fog abated. I do not know why God did it that way.