What are you thoughts on Annihilation?

please accept history, please don't accept the lies and deceptions of the past. Be honest

The concept of a soul within us that cannot die first became a ‘Christian’ doctrine at the end of the second century AD.

Hell had been taught in Greek philosophy long before the time of Jesus, with Plato (427-347 BC) as the important leader in this thinking.

The teaching of an everlasting place of punishment for the wicked is the natural consequence of a belief in an immortal soul. By the year AD 187, it was understood that life, once we have it, is compulsory; there is no end to it, either now or in a world to come. We have no choice as to its continuance, even if we were to commit suicide to end it.

At the end of the 2nd century Christianity had begun to blend Greek philosophy —human speculative reasoning, with the teachings of God’s Word. Such words and phrases as ‘continuance of being’, ‘perpetual existence’, ‘incapable of dissolution’ and ‘incorruptible’ began to appear in so-called Christian writings. These had come straight from Plato, the Greek philosopher, all those years before Jesus. Other phrases used were ‘the soul to remain by itself immortal’, and ‘an immortal nature’. It was taught that this is how God made us.

But this idea derives from philosophy, not divine inspiration. There are no such words in the Bible. It was Athenagorus, a Christian, but whose teachings, according to the Encyclopaedia Britannica, were strongly tinged with Platonism, who had introduced the teaching of an immortal soul into Christianity. In this way, he paved the way for the logical introduction of eternal torment for immortal, but sinful, souls. This was a hundred years and more after the time of the apostles, and came straight from popular philosophy. The apostles had consistently taught that death is a sleep, to be followed by resurrection. The early church leaders – Clement, Ignatius, Hermas, Polycarp, and others who also believed that death is a sleep, taught that the wicked are destroyed forever by fire – their punishment was to be annihilation. These leaders did not teach of an immortal soul to be tortured by fire in hell for eternity.
About AD 240 Tertullian of Carthage took up the teaching of an immortal soul. It was he who added the further, but logical dimension. He taught the endless torment of the immortal soul of the wicked was parallel to the eternal blessedness of the saved, with no sleep of death after this life.
This came at a time when many Christians were being burned for their faith and it was natural for them to accept that their persecutors would at death be consigned to an ever-burning hell for the persecution they had inflicted on others while they went straight to eternal bliss.

From the third century the darkness of the infiltration of man-made beliefs into Christianity deepened until the Dark Ages had smothered almost all the light of God’s Word. At the beginning of this time, the first attempts were made to create a systematic set of beliefs. It is not surprising that an ever-burning hell and the immortality of the soul were prominently included.
It is at this time that such beliefs, held by most Christians today, had their origin. An ever-burning hell has remained a commonly taught doctrine of the Christian religion to this day. It was not based on the Bible but on philosophy. Bible verses were later sought to uphold the ancient philosophies of the Greeks, and added to the teaching.

Did you read the context of 1 Corinthians 1:28?

1 Corinthians 1:28-29
28And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: 29That no flesh should glory in his presence.

This is in reference to being in the presence of God. This isn't about right now in the present on Earth. This is undoubtedly a reference to judgement day. There will be no empty philosophy, doctrines of men, and clever arguments used to circumvent the truth or find loopholes in the judgment of God. All of those arguments will cease to exist, they will have been "brought to nothing."

To judgement then directly to the lake of fire for death. Nothing about being tormented forever. The end.

Revelation 20:11-15
11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Cv5 was using what he calls useless vain human reasoning to put forth the preposterous
notion that Paul was somehow incapable of saying what he meant and so instead used
such words as a synonym for Gehenna. He said it was because Paul was speaking to people
who probably did not know what Gehenna was. Of course that is all speculation on his part.
I made the same observation you have about the verses he posted, how they support the
view he opposes, not his. He has to twist Scripture and change multiple words and make up
some story he hopes others will accept as plausible to get the verses to mean what he wants.

And after all that? He will be left contradicting still Scripture, for God alone is immortal,
and immortality is put on by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.

Were these posted by CV5 or was someone else using his computer-?These ALL say death and perish
is the fate of the unbeliever.

Okay?....

Gotcha, sis--I'm playing catch up here. Fyi perplexed expression
is in response to CV5's post, not yours--you got it goin' on!


dang it! i jacked Aaron's video meme, but it said 'file too large'

Hmm?


Burn up: to destroy something with fire until it obliterated. Unquenchable fire is a fire that is not put out. Fires do always eventually go out, therefore we can ascertain this is figurative language for annihilated.

How do we know this? because we have posted about a gazillion verses stating this fact over and over and over again!

Arpon, I think you have missed what Divine Watermark is saying--you'll see a lot of this confusion on his posts--he does not believe the end of man is death--he does not believe the dictionary definitions of DEATH / PERISH / DESTRUCTION. He believes the unbeliever will burn for all eternity--it is the false doctrine of ETERNAL CONSCIOUS TORMENT.

Yes TMS--it is from Satan and it is of the 'doctrines of demons' scripture speaks of. 'They will call good, evil and evil good.' The worst thing you could say against God's character is to equate Him with evil and to put him on par with Satan. Some of the most well known verses of Scripture say "the wicked will be destroyed", "the wages of sin is death", "...should not perish, but have eternal life." Virtually ALL the verses the ETC'ers use are FIGURATIVE not literal. e.g. 'tormented day and night forever and ever'--that is one of their favorites, neglecting the fact that Revelation is a VISION John sees with a multitude of imagery and symbolism.

"And he replied, 'I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouths of all his prophets.' 'You will surely entice him and prevail,' said the LORD. 'Go and do it.'"--1st Kings 22:22

And the biggest problem I see that overwhelmingly the ETC side is always speaking from their own ideas, not backing it up with facts or using the same old tired FIGURATIVE verses to support their ETC rickety fence.



Lucy you say:

"It's not for us to determine that God is cruel for creating a realm of eternal fire."

That makes no sense. God has given human beings the ability to discern what is evil and what is good. He demonstrates His character throughout Scripture--His justice and also His love. He gave us His Word so we could know Him. He wants us to share that Truth with others, not lies that besmirch his character. We on the Annihilationist side have posted voluminous amounts of LITERAL verses and no one bothers to read them. People would rather stay in their safe corner of what they know rather than ask God to take off the lens of the faulty and mythological doctrine they've been taught and see the TRUTH.

Nope. Sounds like twn kings and ten kingdoms spanning a region of 7 montains which are 7 areas of land where these kingdoms exist. That's not a man. That's millions of men.

Bye bye Laura798. You have served your purpose.

I read your entire post ( not to worry--and oh, I've either read your posts on this before, or else you sound very much alike to the poster I did read and am apparently thinking of, if not you, lol), and I just wanted to point out something related to the above comment [/summing up your basic point there]...

It's not that I believe all of the mentions of "1260 days / 42 months / time,times,half-a-time" are split up between the two halves somehow (NO, not what I'm saying)...



...I'm just saying that ONLY the "1260 days of the 2W testimony" is the one that STRADDLES the two halves (due to what I explained, as well as Rev8:13's info)...


...and that the OTHER mentions of these various phrases ALL refer to the SECOND HALF ONLY (of the 7 yrs), i.e. "THE GREAT tribulation" Rev7:14 (which commences only at the AOD per Matt24:15 referring back to Dan12:11 "AOD *SET UP*" [parallel 2Th2:4b "SITTETH," time-wise] and the specific day-amounts provided THERE [Dan12:11 and vv.6-7,1... which 12:1 is CONTINUED / CONTINUING ON from the latter part of chpt 11 (v.45 is not saying this MID-trib point--vv.12:1--is WHEN he'll "come to his end," it's just saying "this is the guy who will come to his end" i.e. identifying him... same "king"/guy referred to back in v.36 parallel to 2Th2:9a and 2Th2:4a as I mentioned)].)

All this means there is TIME preceding the point when the AOD occurs (MID-trib / MID-of-7-yrs) in which he will exist doing things pertinent to his role (man of sin / the antichrist / beast-"king/leader"-aspect stuff), too. And this is also ascertained by recognizing that in Rev1:1 "TO SHOW UNTO His servants things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" connects with the "COME UP, I WILL SHOW you..." of 4:1 and everything following (including the SEALS, which are EQUIVALENT TO "the beginning of birth PANGS [PLURAL]" Jesus spoke of...[and Paul echoed by saying "the DOTL ARRIVES... 'exactly like' " the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" that COMES UPON a woman...]... so that when we go back and look at what Jesus said is the FIRST OF THOSE, He stated, Matt24:4/Mk13:5 "G5100 - tis - A CERTAIN ONE ['a certain one' bringing deception!]"...Again, this is PARALLEL to "SEAL #1" (and parallel the "whose COMING [/ARRIVAL]" of 2Th2:9a!).

The other half (first half of the "7 yrs") is factored by considering all of the details; by comparing also how each of several prophetic [eschatological] passages ALL have the SAME "BEGINNING... MIDDLE... END [of 7yrs]" features (with matching themes, and so forth); and by noting the various "time-stamps" woven throughout Revelation (some more readily apparent than others; some less readily apparent, like how "kings went out to battle" at a very specific time [think: Rev19], etc, etc); by connecting Paul's 2Th2 passage with the SAME 7-YR SPANS that another passage shows, bearing in mind the MANNER IN WHICH he said "the DOTL" will ARRIVE [it's not at the same moment that Jesus Himself is MANIFEST / RETURNS [VISIBLY] to the earth, but rather, when His JUDGMENTS COMMENCE unfolding upon the earth, i.e. when He will "STAND to JUDGE" Isa3:13, Rev5:6 [2Th2:7b-8a parallel language to Lam2:3-4], etc...)...

But I'm sure I've said much of this to you before, in past posts... so I'm merely repeating myself here ...

All that to say, the "TIME-PERIOD" (involving the "person" aspect of the beast) doesn't just suddenly commence at Rev13, halfway through the entire book of Revelation, when 1:1 [/1:19c / 4:1] had just said that the FUTURE aspects of the Book (what John was getting ready to be "SHOWN" [4:1+]) are "things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" (same phrase [and same time-period] mentioned in both Lk18:8 "AVENGE in quickness" and in Rom16:20 "shall CRUSH Satan UNDER YOUR FEET in quickness"), aka the "7 yr period" commonly called the tribulation period (commencing with the FIRST SEAL, with "the beginning of birth PANGS" being the SEALS; 1Th5:1-3 and Matt24:4&Mk13:5 <--their STARTING point)


O.O (too much for one post... LOL!)

Hell is thrown into the lake of fire. David and Jesus went there too, therefore Hell is not a place of eternal torment, it's equivelant in Hebrew is Sheol--abode of the dead/the grave. The word Hell comes from the Greek Pagan Goddess HEL--often words used even then had roots from pagan words, for example are weekdays are named after greek gods.
HEL (GODDESS)

“Hel” by Johannes Gehrts (1889)
Hel (Old Norse Hel, “Hidden”[1]) is a giantess and/or goddess who rules over the identically-named Hel, the underworld where many of the dead dwell. Her name’s meaning of “Hidden” surely has to do with the underworld and the dead being “hidden” or buried beneath the ground.

I'm not sure what you mean by "you have served your purpose",but as far as I know, God's not done with me yet!

[quoting Gaebelein on 1 Peter 3]

"The chief question is: Did our Lord go to Hades in a disembodied state? In fact, all depends on the question of what is the true meaning of the sentence, “quickened by the Spirit.” Now, according to the interpretations of the men who teach that the Lord visited Hades, the spirits in prison, during the interval between His death and the morning of the third day, He descended into these regions while His dead body was still in the grave. Therefore, these teachers claim that His human spirit was quickened, which necessitates that the spirit which the dying Christ commended into the Father’s hands had also died. This is not only incorrect doctrine, but it is an unsound and evil doctrine. Was the holy humanity of our Lord, body, soul and spirit dead? A thousands times No! Only His body died; that is the only part of Him which could die. The text makes this clear: “He was put to death in flesh,” that is, His body. There could be no quickening of His spirit, for His spirit was alive. Furthermore, the word quickening, as we learn from Ephesians 1:20 and Ephesians 2:5-6, by comparing the two passages, applies to His physical resurrection, it is the quickening of His body. To teach that the Lord Jesus was made alive before His resurrection is unscriptural. The “quickened by the Spirit” means the raising up of His body. His human spirit needed no quickening; it was His body and only His body. And the Spirit who did the quickening is not His own spirit, that is, His human spirit, but the Holy Spirit. Romans 8:11 speaks of the Spirit as raising Jesus from among the dead.

"We have shown that it was an impossibility that Christ was in any way quickened while His body was not yet raised, hence a visit to Hades is positively excluded between His death and resurrection. There is only another alternative. If it is true that He descended into these regions, then it must have been after His resurrection. But that is equally untenable. The so-called “Apostle’s Creed” puts the descent between His death and resurrection and all the other theorists follow this view. We have shown what the passage does not mean. It cannot mean a visit of the disembodied Christ to Hades, for it speaks of the quickening by the Spirit, and that means His physical resurrection.

"What, then, does the passage mean? It is very simple after all. He preached by the Spirit, or in the Spirit, that is, the same Spirit who raised Him from among the dead, the Holy Spirit of life and power, to the spirits who are now in prison. But when the preaching occurred they were not in prison. And who were they? All the wicked dead for 4,000 years? The text makes it clear that they are a special class of people. They were living in the days of Noah. It is incomprehensible how some of these teachers, misinterpreting this passage, can teach that it includes all the lost, or angels which fell, or the righteous dead. The Spirit of God preached to them, that is, the Spirit who quickened the body of Christ, the same Spirit preached to the generation of unbelievers in the days of Noah. The time of the preaching, then, did not occur between the death and resurrection of Christ, but it took place in Noah’s day. Christ was not personally, or corporeally present, just as He is not present in person in this age when the gospel is preached; His Spirit is here.

"So was He present by His Spirit in the days of Noah. It is written: “My Spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years” (Genesis 6:3). His Spirit was then on the earth. In long-suffering God was waiting for one hundred and twenty years while the ark was preparing. His Spirit preached then. But He needed an instrument. The instrument was Noah; in him was the Spirit of Christ and as the preacher of righteousness (2Peter 2:5) he delivered the warning message of an impending judgment to those about him, who did not heed the message, passed on in disobedience, were swept away by the deluge and are now the spirits in prison. As the Spirit of Christ was in the prophets (1Peter 1:11) testifying beforehand of the suffering of Christ and the glory that should follow, so the Spirit of Christ preached through Noah. This is the meaning of this passage, and any other is faulty and unscriptural."

-- https://biblehub.com/commentaries/gaebelein/1_peter/3.htm

"And the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God."--Ephesians 6:17
The angels at His Coming will have to pry it from my grubby little hands!

From your pal C?5


Okay, Purple and Ewok,

Whatever your names are. Here's the deal--and don't go asking for literal scripture or any of that nonsense--just take my word for okay?
:
So the 10 kings are actually 10 Titans and they are huge! I mean think bigger than the Eiffel Tower--and they stand on those 7 hills--they have swords--they were made in China--since all the steel works are there now --dang those Chinese!--anyways, I digress...

They battle it out then Jesus comes down and says "Cut it out you knuckleheads!" Then various and other crummy stuff happens--but of course we've skipped the judgment and are just watching from the heavenly kingdom in our heavenly lawn chairs, drinking our heavenly lemonade--I put some Scotch in mine--shh! don't tell...anyhowz, the bad people--those dudes are thrown into the 'Fire' (ETC) and all us good guys fly down in our lawn chairs( they're aerodynamic) and sit next to the blazing fire and roast weenies and marshmallows --the angels hand out ear plugs so we don't have to be bothered by the screaming...THE END

DW, You say all passages are in agreement with the statement above about being 'tormented day and night forever and ever' What passages exactly are you referring to? Any of these?

• When God said "In the day you eat of it you shall surely DIE."
• "The wages of sin is death"
• "should not perish by have everlasting life"
• "the wicked are destroyed."

You can multiple the verses above easily by 100. In a variety of ways the bible clearly says the wicked will be "no more" the will be "ashes" under our feet, "as if they never were."

Therefore we know "tormented day and night forever is clearly figurative because 1

1) Revelation is a VISION filled with symbols and bizarre images --much of the language itself is figurative.
2) The angel tells us four times the Lake of Fire IS the second DEATH
3) Christ DIED in our place--he was not and is not, nor will he ever be suffering eternal conscious torment in our place!

Again--I've asked this question multiple times and not ONE on the ETC side has responded. I don't want the Strong's Conordance--I don't want words defined. I don't want only verses with Figurative Language--please give us at least five LITERAL verses that say eternal conscious torment is the penatly for sin and not death.

Again death means DEATH. Destructions means DESTRUCTION. Perish Means PERISH. If you deny the definitions of those words then the bible will never be able to be read with any sense if words do not mean what they mean.