THE RAPTURE/END OF DAYS
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I found an article this morning on the origin of the rapture doctrine.
It is clear that the popular belief of postribbers concerning the origin of the pre-tribulation rapture is basically a bunch of Lies.
Personally I have looked very little into the history eschatology concerning the beliefs of the church fathers.
But I find it amazing how bogus post tribulation adherents have framed the origins of all eschatology.
This article is an eye opener for the eschatology hounds;
https://tms.edu/m/tmsj13e.pdf
"The early fathers treated these issues of persecution in a simplistic, unreflective manner, which
is hardly a well developed posttribulational position.33 This data leads Crutchfield
to describe thoughtfully the still unclear writings of the fathers as “intratribulation-
al,” that is, “within” or “during” the tribulation.34
In the end, no one can produce a clear statement of patristic eschatology
regarding the rapture. What can be concluded is the following:
• The early fathers placed strong emphasis upon imminency.
• They early fathers understood a literal coming of Christ, and a literal 1,000-
year kingdom to follow.
• A type of imminent intratribulationism (Crutchfield) or imminent
posttribulationism (Walvoord)35
with occasional pretribulational inferences
was believed.36
• The early fathers understood a kind of “practical persecution,” due to times
of general Roman persecution that they experienced, rather than a specific
fulfillment of future tribulational wrath.
Cruthchfield rightly concludes,
This view of the fathers on imminency, and, in some, references to escaping the time of
the Tribulation, constitute what may be termed, to quote Erickson, ‘seeds from which the
doctrine of the pretribulational rapture could be developed. . . .” Had it not been for the
drought in sound exegesis, brought on by Alexandrian allegorism and later by Augustine,
one wonders what kind of crop those seeds might have yielded—long before J. N. Darby
and the nineteenth century.
37"
It is clear that the popular belief of postribbers concerning the origin of the pre-tribulation rapture is basically a bunch of Lies.
Personally I have looked very little into the history eschatology concerning the beliefs of the church fathers.
But I find it amazing how bogus post tribulation adherents have framed the origins of all eschatology.
This article is an eye opener for the eschatology hounds;
https://tms.edu/m/tmsj13e.pdf
"The early fathers treated these issues of persecution in a simplistic, unreflective manner, which
is hardly a well developed posttribulational position.33 This data leads Crutchfield
to describe thoughtfully the still unclear writings of the fathers as “intratribulation-
al,” that is, “within” or “during” the tribulation.34
In the end, no one can produce a clear statement of patristic eschatology
regarding the rapture. What can be concluded is the following:
• The early fathers placed strong emphasis upon imminency.
• They early fathers understood a literal coming of Christ, and a literal 1,000-
year kingdom to follow.
• A type of imminent intratribulationism (Crutchfield) or imminent
posttribulationism (Walvoord)35
with occasional pretribulational inferences
was believed.36
• The early fathers understood a kind of “practical persecution,” due to times
of general Roman persecution that they experienced, rather than a specific
fulfillment of future tribulational wrath.
Cruthchfield rightly concludes,
This view of the fathers on imminency, and, in some, references to escaping the time of
the Tribulation, constitute what may be termed, to quote Erickson, ‘seeds from which the
doctrine of the pretribulational rapture could be developed. . . .” Had it not been for the
drought in sound exegesis, brought on by Alexandrian allegorism and later by Augustine,
one wonders what kind of crop those seeds might have yielded—long before J. N. Darby
and the nineteenth century.
37"
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Yes sadly there are many false prophets and false visionaries,many so called speakers of the lord it is amazing to me they have the nerve to dishonor him so carelessly
It is true that we were told we would have dreams and visions in these times but whether one actually has them or is of vain imaginations seems to be difficult for people to discern
I am not especially gifted in regards to dreams I mainly have visions they play out like a movie in my minds eye and sometimes I write them in the form of poetry I can describe everything as if I am actually there from the feeling in the air to the blades of grass or the texture of the dirt.
It isn't as if I am special or anything I think he gives me these only because of how intimately close we are because if I recieved such things without having such a deep love with him what good would it do me or anyone? I think the heavenly clock is counting down and he knows who is his he has chosen for himself a children who have only the deepest love and affection for him and I believe it is those who are in him by heart not by title that will see him come for us in the clouds. But it is hard these days to find such people in spirit like you I have gone to many different churches never once could I find one that felt like home to me the pastors all had good sermons they were full of scripture they were worded well they were structured good but when I would look at the people listening everyone seemed lifeless his spirit was seemingly nowhere to be found
1948 was the beginning of the countdown as whenever we need to see where we are in bible prophecy we always look to israel and a war is coming she is surrounded by enemies with the threat of iran wanting nukes and if they are able to obtain it they won't hesitate to use it. I am thinking if we are to pinpoint the true season of the rapture we need to pay attention to the coming war because when that happens I think that will be the turning point that brings about him gathering his sheep to safety .
Those who can feel it know it is close we know in our spirit and can sense it's nearness but it is not yet time however I think we will all feel in our spirits when it is finally time
It is true that we were told we would have dreams and visions in these times but whether one actually has them or is of vain imaginations seems to be difficult for people to discern
I am not especially gifted in regards to dreams I mainly have visions they play out like a movie in my minds eye and sometimes I write them in the form of poetry I can describe everything as if I am actually there from the feeling in the air to the blades of grass or the texture of the dirt.
It isn't as if I am special or anything I think he gives me these only because of how intimately close we are because if I recieved such things without having such a deep love with him what good would it do me or anyone? I think the heavenly clock is counting down and he knows who is his he has chosen for himself a children who have only the deepest love and affection for him and I believe it is those who are in him by heart not by title that will see him come for us in the clouds. But it is hard these days to find such people in spirit like you I have gone to many different churches never once could I find one that felt like home to me the pastors all had good sermons they were full of scripture they were worded well they were structured good but when I would look at the people listening everyone seemed lifeless his spirit was seemingly nowhere to be found
1948 was the beginning of the countdown as whenever we need to see where we are in bible prophecy we always look to israel and a war is coming she is surrounded by enemies with the threat of iran wanting nukes and if they are able to obtain it they won't hesitate to use it. I am thinking if we are to pinpoint the true season of the rapture we need to pay attention to the coming war because when that happens I think that will be the turning point that brings about him gathering his sheep to safety .
Those who can feel it know it is close we know in our spirit and can sense it's nearness but it is not yet time however I think we will all feel in our spirits when it is finally time
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"I found an article this morning on the origin of the rapture doctrine.
It is clear that the popular belief of postribbers concerning the origin of the pre-tribulation rapture is basically a bunch of Lies.
Personally I have looked very little into the history eschatology concerning the beliefs of the church fathers.
But I find it amazing how bogus post tribulation adherents have framed the origins of all eschatology."
So the Hymn writer in 300-400 AD that wrote (you can read the scroll on line) about Christ coming before the great tribulation.. where did he get that idea? Then what about all those before him? How about those that were not believers yet wrote about what believers were saying back then?
forgive me I will not treat you as you have treated others.. that is not love its pride. Said this many times a simple GOOLE BING search will not easily find this. A man that passed away awhile ago had a show on TBN talked about this hymn writer and man others. And Perry Stone. All this proves is what? They believed Jesus was coming back before the great tribulation. There is no POST TRIB verse no pre trib verse.
So forgive me all you shown was you didn't search very deep.
It is clear that the popular belief of postribbers concerning the origin of the pre-tribulation rapture is basically a bunch of Lies.
Personally I have looked very little into the history eschatology concerning the beliefs of the church fathers.
But I find it amazing how bogus post tribulation adherents have framed the origins of all eschatology."
So the Hymn writer in 300-400 AD that wrote (you can read the scroll on line) about Christ coming before the great tribulation.. where did he get that idea? Then what about all those before him? How about those that were not believers yet wrote about what believers were saying back then?
forgive me I will not treat you as you have treated others.. that is not love its pride. Said this many times a simple GOOLE BING search will not easily find this. A man that passed away awhile ago had a show on TBN talked about this hymn writer and man others. And Perry Stone. All this proves is what? They believed Jesus was coming back before the great tribulation. There is no POST TRIB verse no pre trib verse.
So forgive me all you shown was you didn't search very deep.
That's all under the seventh trumpet, I told you there was a lot more. What I post was the beginning of the seventh Trumpet. You have to learn and put all together, for example let's take a look at that sickle in Zechariah 14: 12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth. 13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour. 14 And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance. 15And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague.....
Let's go back to Revelation 14: 14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. 16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. 17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. 18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. 19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
It's all the same event, the prophets telling the same story in different ways then the apostles, with more to understand here and there. Paul said in 2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Let's add more to it in Revelation 11: 15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. 16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17 saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. 19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.
Look at all this knowledge in these verses. Jesus came down and took the world over, the saints got there reward because Jesus say And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. (Revelation 22: 12-14). We have the ark of the Testament, and we have the twenty four elders.
Let's go back to Revelation 14: 14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. 16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. 17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. 18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. 19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
It's all the same event, the prophets telling the same story in different ways then the apostles, with more to understand here and there. Paul said in 2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Let's add more to it in Revelation 11: 15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. 16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17 saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. 19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.
Look at all this knowledge in these verses. Jesus came down and took the world over, the saints got there reward because Jesus say And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. (Revelation 22: 12-14). We have the ark of the Testament, and we have the twenty four elders.
As a pretrib believer I have the hope of going home even though I could very well be wrong. There is evidence to support each view if you search for it many have beaten the horse blue on this many have given scriptures and evidence of all kinds yet the church is still divided on this. To be honest I don't think such debates are wrong but if it only causes division is it even worth having?
There are different types of believers out there. some pretribbers believe so much he is coming soon they have not prepared their hearts should they be wrong some mid tribbers have readied themselves for what is to come but do not expect his coming and thus do not know the joy of such hope and post tribbers have the similar train of thought. There are also different kind of people those who have the willingness to learn and admit they could be wrong and those who cannot.
I see squabbles and insults thrown every direction all because of a difference of understanding and everyone believing they are right and they are wrong, I see grown adults resort to childish behavior in a debate that doesn't even matter in the end because regardless of who is right in their standing if our hearts are not in the right place it all amounts to nothing and we won't be prepared no matter the outcome.
Our hearts will always be the deciding factor in every aspect of both our carnal and spiritual lives if we seek to know the deeper things our hearts first and foremost have that intimacy with him that closeness that connection of the hearts secondly we cannot claim to know the truth if we are so unwilling to question our beliefs otherwise even if the truth is handed to us on a silver platter we will be blind to it all because we are so sure we stand on the truth.
Anyone can prove their view to be right but few can disprove it not because it cannot be done but because they are unwilling. How do you test the strength of a blade? Do you simply declare how strong it is or do you test it against steel to see if it holds up? perhaps instead of arguing and believing so firmly we are right we should prove it right by trying to prove it wrong
There are different types of believers out there. some pretribbers believe so much he is coming soon they have not prepared their hearts should they be wrong some mid tribbers have readied themselves for what is to come but do not expect his coming and thus do not know the joy of such hope and post tribbers have the similar train of thought. There are also different kind of people those who have the willingness to learn and admit they could be wrong and those who cannot.
I see squabbles and insults thrown every direction all because of a difference of understanding and everyone believing they are right and they are wrong, I see grown adults resort to childish behavior in a debate that doesn't even matter in the end because regardless of who is right in their standing if our hearts are not in the right place it all amounts to nothing and we won't be prepared no matter the outcome.
Our hearts will always be the deciding factor in every aspect of both our carnal and spiritual lives if we seek to know the deeper things our hearts first and foremost have that intimacy with him that closeness that connection of the hearts secondly we cannot claim to know the truth if we are so unwilling to question our beliefs otherwise even if the truth is handed to us on a silver platter we will be blind to it all because we are so sure we stand on the truth.
Anyone can prove their view to be right but few can disprove it not because it cannot be done but because they are unwilling. How do you test the strength of a blade? Do you simply declare how strong it is or do you test it against steel to see if it holds up? perhaps instead of arguing and believing so firmly we are right we should prove it right by trying to prove it wrong
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wow you didn't search very deep did you?
The article you did not bother to read was quite in depth.
Did you investigate it
No you did not
That is called condemnation prior to investigation. You are what's known as typical low-information student.
If you are referrimg to DT, you have a point.
But show me your " others" accusation.
Show me.
I my defense. That man is here to bring others into rabbit trails.
The man is not honest and his purpose is to promote a Doctrine he cannot defend and to lead others into that Rabbit Trail. Try it yourself .
pretend you're a pretribber and ask him a simple question
.I'll get the popcorn.
At any rate his deal is over with me.
Ignore land for him.
The article you did not bother to read was quite in depth.
Did you investigate it
No you did not
That is called condemnation prior to investigation. You are what's known as typical low-information student.
If you are referrimg to DT, you have a point.
But show me your " others" accusation.
Show me.
I my defense. That man is here to bring others into rabbit trails.
The man is not honest and his purpose is to promote a Doctrine he cannot defend and to lead others into that Rabbit Trail. Try it yourself .
pretend you're a pretribber and ask him a simple question
.I'll get the popcorn.
At any rate his deal is over with me.
Ignore land for him.
i hope in the future you will learn to embrace that.
the gathering in rev 14 has Jesus sitting on a cloud holding a sickle gathering ripe fruit from the Earth.
That is a vivid depiction of what is going on.
That's a good starting place for you.
Start with that Vivid depiction, and see if it matches the other depictions of Jesus Gathering, or possibly the second coming on billions of white horses.
try checking that out. Let me know when you embraced that verse to study to show yourself approved, where you actually unpack all the Dynamics instead of the ones you're trying to promote.
There are no 'early fathers' this is a term that came from the Nicolatians (rulers of the clergy) which our Lord hates.
We are only to follow the teachings/commandments of the LORD, the Apostles and the HS7 writings.
The LORD, Apostles and Prophets are the only Authorized Speakers/Educators/Consultants
They all are in agreement and say:
1) God warns
2) Sin abounds
3) Grace to those who Believe
4)Tribulation
5) Deliverance from His wrath upon the Grace Recipients
6) Wrath upon the ungodly
We are only to follow the teachings/commandments of the LORD, the Apostles and the HS7 writings.
The LORD, Apostles and Prophets are the only Authorized Speakers/Educators/Consultants
They all are in agreement and say:
1) God warns
2) Sin abounds
3) Grace to those who Believe
4)Tribulation
5) Deliverance from His wrath upon the Grace Recipients
6) Wrath upon the ungodly
You mean Revelation, not Romans right? I can't remember this term being used in Romans.
But when it is used, yes it is referring to Jesus, The Messiah- "One who looks like a son of man"
He was seen before his NT incarnation. Most notably in Daniel: 7
13 ‘In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven.
He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence.
14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshipped him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.
But when it is used, yes it is referring to Jesus, The Messiah- "One who looks like a son of man"
He was seen before his NT incarnation. Most notably in Daniel: 7
13 ‘In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven.
He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence.
14 He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all nations and peoples of every language worshipped him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed.
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Amen, Lucy . . . In Revelation 14:14, Jesus Christ returns with a Golden Crown upon His head. He returns as King of kings and Lord of lords No longer does He have a crown of thorns. It’s harvest time!
Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and on the cloud sat One like the Son of Man, having on His head a golden crown, and in His hand a sharp sickle. And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, "Thrust in Your sickle and reap, for the time has come for You to reap, for the harvest of the earth is ripe."
- Revelation 14:14-15 (NKJV)
Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and on the cloud sat One like the Son of Man, having on His head a golden crown, and in His hand a sharp sickle. And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, "Thrust in Your sickle and reap, for the time has come for You to reap, for the harvest of the earth is ripe."
- Revelation 14:14-15 (NKJV)
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