Using Guidelines for Predictive Prophecy

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eternally-gratefull

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#41
So the church in history has changed the translation of prophetic writings? Where do you find such changes? Where did you find anti-semeitic writings in the earlier, lasting commentaries on the Scriptures? I know Martin Luther came down hard on them, but the Jews he dealt with probably earned it as they were rabidly anti-Christian stating the most vile things.
So the church of the 3rd century is the tru church of God?

When did you convert to catholicism? If you did that, You have more problems that just prophecy my friend.

was that not the same mistakes the jews made when Christ came? They looked at history and what their fathers wrote, and not what the word of God wrote. And because of it, they crucified Christ?
 

cv5

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Nov 20, 2018
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#42
The New Covenant believers, the congregation of Christ, those of the "new creation" are the true Israel continued. Old physical Israel is history, not to be brought back.

"Circumcision is nothing; uncircumcision is nothing; the only thing that counts is new creation! All who take this principle for their guide, peace and mercy be upon them, the Israel of God!" (Gal 6:15-16, REB)

"Gal 6:15-16 Williams NT) "For neither circumcision nor the lack of it has any value, but only a new creation. (16) Now peace and mercy be on all who walk by this rule; that is, on the true Israel of God."

The word "and" in the literal, word for word translations is explicatory as explained in Heinrich Meyer, 19th century Greek scholar:

"We must adhere, therefore, to the explicative view of καί as the correct one (1Co 3:5; 1Co 8:12; 1Co 15:38; Joh 1:16), and indeed, namely, so that it introduces an appropriate, more precise description (Hartung, Partikell. I. p. 145 f.; Winer, p. 407 [E. T. 545 f.]) of the subjects previously characterized."

The people referred to in v15 cannot be separated from those spoken of in v16.

I wonder how many dispensationalists who draw a strong distinction between Israel and the church are aware that it was the KJV, that dropped the word "church" from describing the Old Covenant people of God and solely applied it to New Covenant believers, except for Acts 7:38 where it refers back to the OT. The word "church" is an ecclesiastical word used by the KJV and a literal translation such as the YLT does not have the word "church" anywhere in its translation.
That is a no sale. Replacement theology is a heresy.
 

cv5

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Nov 20, 2018
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#43
You must deny the exact, literal words of God to believe that the promises have not been fulfilled:

"So the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein. And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand. There failed not aught of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass." (Josh 21:43-45, ERV)

The evasions attempted to ignore what is clearly stated are clearly in direct contradiction to the Scripture itself. It is repeated again in similar wording:

"And, behold, this day I am going the way of all the earth: and ye know in all your hearts and in all your souls, that not one thing hath failed of all the good things which the LORD your God spake concerning you; all are come to pass unto you, not one thing hath failed thereof. And it shall come to pass, that as all the good things are come upon you of which the LORD your God spake unto you, so shall the LORD bring upon you all the evil things, until he have destroyed you from off this good land which the LORD your God hath given you." (Josh 23:14-15, ERV)

It is true that sometimes things of God are said to be done when the near certainty of them is meant; but not thousands of years later. It is clear Israel possessed all the land promised to Abraham in Gen. 15:18 as it is stated thus:

"Judah and Israel were many, as the sand which is by the sea in multitude, eating and drinking and making merry. And Solomon ruled over all the kingdoms from the River unto the land of the Philistines, and unto the border of Egypt: they brought presents, and served Solomon all the days of his life." (1Kgs 4:20-21, ERV)

The convoluted evasions men invent to circumvent the truth of God's word is truly amazing. The physical nation of Israel, the Jews of old are never to be again. The Old Covenant was annulled and abolished on the cross, and and their temple destroyed in 70 AD, never to be seen again. I doubt there is anyone alive today that can claim ancestry to the Jew of 30 AD. Are they a race? A religions? A culture? If a race, DNA sure does not show it. The religion of so-called Jews in this day is NOT the OT religion of Israel. Cultures change over time so that does not fit. Not all those claiming to be Jews today agree with Zionism as you can read online:

https://www.truetorahjews.org/mission
You missed a few hundred verses and passages there buddy. You know the ones from Genesis 12 and onward. Right? You know all those passages about Israel being gloriously reconstituted in the eternal Messianic earthly kingdom?
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
18,508
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#44
You must deny the exact, literal words of God to believe that the promises have not been fulfilled:

"So the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein. And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand. There failed not aught of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass." (Josh 21:43-45, ERV)

The evasions attempted to ignore what is clearly stated are clearly in direct contradiction to the Scripture itself. It is repeated again in similar wording:

"And, behold, this day I am going the way of all the earth: and ye know in all your hearts and in all your souls, that not one thing hath failed of all the good things which the LORD your God spake concerning you; all are come to pass unto you, not one thing hath failed thereof. And it shall come to pass, that as all the good things are come upon you of which the LORD your God spake unto you, so shall the LORD bring upon you all the evil things, until he have destroyed you from off this good land which the LORD your God hath given you." (Josh 23:14-15, ERV)

It is true that sometimes things of God are said to be done when the near certainty of them is meant; but not thousands of years later. It is clear Israel possessed all the land promised to Abraham in Gen. 15:18 as it is stated thus:

"Judah and Israel were many, as the sand which is by the sea in multitude, eating and drinking and making merry. And Solomon ruled over all the kingdoms from the River unto the land of the Philistines, and unto the border of Egypt: they brought presents, and served Solomon all the days of his life." (1Kgs 4:20-21, ERV)

The convoluted evasions men invent to circumvent the truth of God's word is truly amazing. The physical nation of Israel, the Jews of old are never to be again. The Old Covenant was annulled and abolished on the cross, and and their temple destroyed in 70 AD, never to be seen again. I doubt there is anyone alive today that can claim ancestry to the Jew of 30 AD. Are they a race? A religions? A culture? If a race, DNA sure does not show it. The religion of so-called Jews in this day is NOT the OT religion of Israel. Cultures change over time so that does not fit. Not all those claiming to be Jews today agree with Zionism as you can read online:

https://www.truetorahjews.org/mission
Did somebody tear Romans 9, 10 & 11 out of your Bible? You might want to check.
 
Nov 5, 2021
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#45
Gen 17: 7 And I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you in their generations, for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and your descendants after you. 8 Also I give to you and your descendants after you the land in[f] which you are a stranger, all the land of Canaan, as an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.”

The problem wiht your understanding is God gave no terms that Abraham had to fulfill in order for this promise to continue, in other words, it was not a dual covenant like we think of covenants, (you do this I will do that, You do not keep your 4end of the agreement, I do not have to either) It was and I WILL covenant, God even put moses to sleep when he made the covenant in Gen 15. And only HE walked through the middle, which instilled the fact that if God did not keep his agreement, May God be cut up as these animals were. (It was tradition in those days that is how these covenants were made)

The ONLy conditions ever given to Israel was according to the law in Lev 26, Where God said if you keep my commands, I will allow you to live there in peac e. But if you sin, I will punish you 7 times more. The final punishment being that their cities and high places will be laced to waste by gentiles (accrued 3 times, Once by assyria (northern kingdom) once by Babylon and the last time by Rome in ad 70)

but even after all this, if they confess their sins and confess that they have sinned and their fathers have sinned, and repent of their sins, God will remember the promise he gave to abraham.

if you look at prophecy, you see this will happen in the future, It has not happened yet. Hence, if we literally take prophecy to interpret it. It is a yet to be fulfilled prophecy
Yes there were commands to fulfill, given in the first verse of the chapter:

"And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am God Almighty; walk before me, and be thou perfect." (Gen 17:1, ERV)

We know the phrase "walk before me" refers to obedience to commands as seen in Amos:

"Shall two walk together, except they have agreed?" (Amos 3:3, ERV)

Following v8, comes the institution of circumcision and when we look forward to the institution of the New Covenant, in the blood of Christ, we see a change in who is now Israel, Israel as continued (not replaced) in the New Covenant:

"For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. And as many as shall walk by this rule, peace be upon them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God." (Gal 6:15-16, ERV)

The word "and" is explicatory, or an explanation as stated in Heinrich Meyer's 19th century commentary commentary:

"We must adhere, therefore, to the explicative view of καί[and] as the correct one (1Co 3:5; 1Co 8:12; 1Co 15:38; Joh 1:16), and indeed, namely, so that it introduces an appropriate, more precise description (Hartung, Partikell. I. p. 145 f.; Winer, p. 407 [E. T. 545 f.]) of the subjects previously characterized."

So it is the New Covenant believers, the church who are Israel continued in the New Covenant for ALL nations, Jew and Gentile, as shown in a couple other translations:

"Circumcision is nothing; uncircumcision is nothing; the only thing that counts is new creation! All who take this principle for their guide, peace and mercy be upon them, the Israel of God!" (Gal 6:15-16, REB)

"For neither circumcision nor the lack of it has any value, but only a new creation. Now peace and mercy be on all who walk by this rule; that is, on the true Israel of God." (Gal 6:15-16 Williams NT)

Abraham was not looking forward to a physical promised land as clearly stated:

"By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed to go out unto a place which he was to receive for an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. By faith he became a sojourner in the land of promise, as in a land not his own, dwelling in tents, with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: for he looked for the city which hath the foundations, whose builder and maker is God." (Heb 11:8-10, ERV)

We know in "city" represents heaven, as seen in Heb 11:16; 12:22; 13:14; Rev 3:12.

I was in dispensationalism for the first 35 years of my life and it took study to dig my way out of all those errors. I learned the major problem with dispensationalism -

They have a cafeteria style literalism: interpreting the figurative and symbolic passages in extreme literalism; while interpreting the literal and natural meaning passages figuratively. In this they are deniers of the kingdom of God as the Jews in Christ's day. The Jews rejected their king and kingdom because of their literalism of what they were expecting. In the same way, dispensationalists reject the New Covenant kingdom of God.

Keep in mind when Jesus became the king of his people as prophesied by David, and it happened in the 1st century!

"Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Until I make thy foes thy footstool. Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ." (Acts 2:30-36, KJV)

I expect many would bring up the difficult passage in Romans 11. The following is what makes sense to me out of that passage:

"But if some of the branches(Physical Jews) were broken off, and you, a wild olive shoot(Elect Gentiles), were grafted in their place to share the richness/rich root (Jesus the Christ) of the olive tree(God's people), do not boast over the branches(Physical Jews). If you do boast, remember it is not you that support the root(Christ), but the root(Christ) that supports you. You will say, “Branches(Physical Jews) were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast only through faith. So do not become proud, but stand in awe. For if God did not spare the natural branches(Physical Jews), neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off. And even the others(Physical Jews), if they do not persist in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. For if you have been cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree(Gentiles), and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree(God's people), how much more will these natural branches(Elect Jews) be grafted back into their own olive tree(God's people). Lest you be wise in your own conceits, I want you to understand this mystery, brethren: a hardening has come upon part of Israel(Physical Jews), until the full number of the Gentiles come in, and so all Israel(elect Jews & elect Gentiles) will be saved; as it is written, “The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”; “and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins.” (Rom 11:17-27 RSV)