More pieces fall into place

No, it was an addition to my post #33 really. I wanted to edit that post but time ran out.

I'm just curious. If a prophet must be grounded in the word, and not prophecy anything that contradicts God's word, why do we need prophets? Teachers, yeah. But it seems prophecy is irrelevant if it must always conform to God's word. Why not just study God's word? Am I making sense?

As a brief overview of the New Apostolic Reformation, allow me to share the following:

1. The NAR doesn't have a central headquarters like most traditional denominations, with a brick and mortar building located somewhere. It's a network of like-minded people and churches.

2. It does, however, have recognized leadership. C. Peter Wagner is the acknowledged founder of the NAR as we know it today. Wagner's the one who coined the name "New Apostolic Reformation." But its roots go back to the 1950s to the Latter Rain movement and the Manifest Sons of God. Names in these movements include William Branham and even Jim Jones.

3. There's an organization comprised of some of the NAR's top leaders: the International Coalition of Apostolic Leaders. So there is a recognized group of leaders.

4. The goal is to reform the church from the inside out. Gone is the traditional (and Biblical) model of elder and deacon leadership; in is the authoritative leadership of the apostle.

5. NAR churches aren't necessarily governed on site by an apostle. More frequently an apostle is the head of a network of many churches and local pastors; some of these networks number in the thousands.

6. C. Peter Wagner claims that the NAR movement is a spontaneous move of God in these latter days. However, all one has to do is read some of Wagner's books and you can see a game plan being developed—not from God but out of his own mind. In fact, Wagner is really the intellectual father of the NAR and most of their beliefs and practices can be traced to him. See for example his contribution to The New Apostolic Churches, 1998: https://www.urbanleaders.org/620Leadership/92Readings/articles/Wagner-New Apostolic Churches.pdf (Direct download).

7. NAR groups aren't just in the US but are worldwide. They are by far the fastest-growing movement, surpassing even Pentecostalism.

8. The NAR is not part of Pentecostalism; however, it's an outgrowth of Pentecostalism and the Assemblies of God. The assemblies of God didn't want anything to do with them. Recently evidence has surfaced that Bethel Church (formerly Bethel Assembly of God), under the leadership of Bill Johnson, is infiltrating certain AoG churches and taking them over. This, really, is the ultimate goal for all churches.

9. There's an article NPR did with C. Peter Wagner in 2011 here: https://www.npr.org/2011/10/03/140946482/apostolic-leader-weighs-religions-role-in-politics. Wagner shares his views on such things as the apostle's authority, dominionism and the Seven Mountains Mandate, among other things. It's clear from his responses the goal is a silent coup, a takeover from within. I found his response to the subject of evangelism pretty interesting: "Well, we respect all religions, but we also respect the freedom of exercising our religion. And part of our religion is called evangelization. It's called presenting Jesus Christ to others and persuading them to become followers of Jesus Christ and walk into the kingdom of God." Sounds good but he forgot about the first part before you walk with Jesus: repentance and the new birth. Judas was a "follower of Jesus." And by "kingdom of God" he doesn't mean a spiritual kingdom but the kingdom of dominionism which he, and others, strive to usher in.

10. Below is an excellent video on the roots of the NAR and the NAR today. All this only scratches the surface, but it's enough to show that it's a thing. It's players and origins can be identified. It's in plain site and most people have no clue what's going on.

Not used to such a short window of time to correct things yet myself. I'm trying to see things in a positive light, and tell myself I'm going to change my habits and actually proof-read now before posting.

I'm probably just lying to myself, LoL.

Hi Vindicator,

I'm quick on the draw myself and realized what I could do is open a Word doc or Google Docs and type it there, then cut and paste.
This has the added benefit of saving some of your ideas to refer to or use again in a similar forum.

I'm off to my very first Sabbath Zoom service--we shall see....

If you don't mind my asking, are you a new believer? How long have you belonged to Christ?

really? I guess you havent read many of my posts….most of my life. Im curious what would make you think im a new believer?

Well I didn't think so initially. It's just that you sounded a bit exuberant about your "first Sabbath Zoom thing," so I got curious.

So how'd it go?

I guess you don't remember me from other forums?

I'm a bit offended to tell you the truth--after all the scripture verses I've quoted--not to mention all the writing I do when explaining my position--not a lot of other do that. apologetics is something that I really enjoy and care deeply about--it would be like asking someone who's played tennis their whole life if they were a beginner....

Excellent post, Aaron.

If you could, tell me what you think of Post #29. I believe the gift of prophecy is still of immense value in the spiritual war, and I personally think the things the enemy has done through people like the Kingdom Now crowd have helped serve to dissuade people from it, and in doing so disarming the church.

Btw, I had pastor friend who got deeply into Guillermo Maldonado, and I was appalled. What those people have to do to Biblical prophecy to make their theology work is just frightening.

I warned people in that church about following that business, and it was not long afterwards that Myles Monroe, the founding father of Kingdom Now, died in a plane crash in 2014. My pastor friend has since backed off it somewhat, thank the Lord.

The more I think about this, the more questions I have; especially about Grudem's book, and why someone would go out of their way to find something in the Bible that justifies false prophecy. For that's what it is; let's just call a spade a spade. Whether you say I flubbed it, I got it wrong, whatever, it's a false prophecy.

First of all, we know Agabus was a true prophet, for he prophesied in Acts 11:28—by the Spirit—that a great famine was coming, and this came to pass. In Acts 21, Agabus prophesied the Jews would bind Paul with his own belt and hand him over to the Gentiles saying: "Thus says the Holy Spirit."

Later in the same chapter we find the account of Paul's being accosted by the Jews and his subsequent arrest by the Romans. The detail about the belt is left out and this, the so-called prophets of the NAR say, makes Agabus' prophecy false because it doesn't say anything about the belt. Seriously? It says he was seized by the Jews and "dragged." Why else would he be dragged unless his feet were bound? When they seized him they grabbed the closest thing available, Paul's belt.

Let's review. Agabus was a true prophet; we know this from Acts 11. In both of his prophecies, the text says he spoke by the Holy Spirit. So either the Holy Spirit is a liar; or Agabus "flubbed" it; or Wayne Grudem is a liar. I know what makes most sense to me.

Why is this idea about Agabus being a false prophet only now surfacing? Did Grudem invent the idea? I've never heard of any such thing until I was made aware of his book. If Agabus was a false prophet, wouldn't this have become a standard church doctrine long ago? Again, I find it a little disturbing that people would go to these lengths to justify false prophecy.

There are currently two sons in the earth: one is of Adam, the other is of Christ.
One sets his path based on logic and reason. The other is led by the Spirit of God.

"and from among your own selves will arise men speaking twisted things, to draw away the disciples after them."--Acts 20:30

I feel this is true about many of what we call 'christian cults'--some may disagree, but i feel that is what happened with Witness Lee--he took Watchman Nee's teachings and twisted them to 'draw away disciples after him.' I have only the 'Normal Christian Life'--a compilation of Watchman's (not Witness) teaching and sermons and only find a couple of things questionable--most is pretty solid teaching, at least in my estimation.

If anyone cares to look into these churches--they say they are as the first century church and will simply call themselves 'The Church in San Francisco"--named after the town they are in.

Also the Boston Church of Christ broke off from the Church of Christ--they have changed their name after much controversy-I forget the name now.

This has happened numerous times over the centuries and continues on in our present time--I've just begun to study the things you posted and some of the other false doctrine I find on these forums--my head is swimming from them all!

No, no. It's not like that. I just don't see too many Christians who've been through it all still getting excited about much. Maybe that's a misconception on my part.

I hope it's not too discouraging; that's not my intent. I just think a lot of things start making more sense when you know what's behind it.

First of all, we know Agabus was a true prophet, for he prophesied in Acts 11:28—by the Spirit—that a great famine was coming, and this came to pass. In Acts 21, Agabus prophesied the Jews would bind Paul with his own belt and hand him over to the Gentiles saying: "Thus says the Holy Spirit."