How the Pre-Trib Rapture Became Popular in the Modern Church

^ As I understand it, Israel is the "natural branches" per Rom11:21 [24] - Romans 11:21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He will certainly not spare you either. (biblehub.com) ; [ and - https://biblehub.com/romans/11-24.htm ]





Here's what I've posted in the past:

[quoting my past posts on this]

I'm looking for a different quote by George V Wigram... but (in the meantime) in its place, I'll just post this brief portion also by him (note the phrase "God's governmental ways on earth," which is what I believe Roman's 11's "olive tree" represents):

[quoting Wigram]

"Gen. 27:29 [Isaac blessing Jacob]. Let peoples (gamnzim, pl.), serve thee and [manners or sorts of ] nations (l'ummim, pl.) bow down to thee: be lord [a mighty man] over thy brethren.
"Observe, this would not run the source of the division of people back to Shem, Ham and Japhet, so as to make the word to be equivalent to what we call the races of people, in connection with the Noahic earth, who constitute the whole human family. The subdivision here alluded to took place in the family of Isaac, type of the heir of promise, not earlier; and the heads of this subdivision are brought before us in Rom. 9 All God's ways and subdivisions are to be noted."


[also]

"f Israel is the goh'y of experience, promise, blessing on the earth; the center of all God's governmental ways on earth; but in saying that, I look at them from outside and as one whole. When they are owned as gammi, my people, their detailed state and associations within is the aspect in which they are considered."

--George V Wigram

http://bibletruthpublishers.com/heb...t-testimony-psalms-article/g-v-wigram/la61041

____________

[quoting that other article by Wigram]

"[re: Romans 11] In Jesus Christ, if the question be about Christian position, eternal life, or the Church considered in her essential relationship to Christ, there was neither Jew nor Gentile; the thoughts found in this chapter [Romans 11] can THERE have no place. If the question be about the cutting off of an individual for sinful conduct, little matters it whether he be Jew or Gentile; that has nothing to do with it, and on the other hand, there would be no question about grafting in again of the Jews more than of any others, and neither Jews nor others could be grafted in, if God had cut them off in such a manner. And if it were a question about a warning from the Apostle to Christians at Rome, and so to others elsewhere, as being brethren, it would be almost nonsense to say, " And thou, O Gentile, take heed!" Why, thou, O Gentile? Had not Christians, Jews by birth, as much need to take heed? Or could the Spirit of God, in such a warning, have made the distinction, and thus denied the principle of, the Church of God in which there is neither Jew nor Gentile? If the question is about a divine administration upon earth, then God can well make the distinction and develop his ways towards the one and the other; and it is plain that from the commencement of the ninth chapter the Apostle is occupied with and pointedly contrasts the Jews and the Gentiles, presenting us with the administration of the divine ways upon the earth. First declaring his attachment to Israel, he points out an election in the election for the earth, and further, that if God according to his sovereignty had chosen Israel (and such was Israel's boast), He had not renounced His sovereignty; and consequently, He could call the Gentiles if he would. Then he recalls to mind that the prophets had shown that a little remnant only, of Israel, at such an epoch, would be saved, and that a stone of stumbling would be laid in Zion."

-- Thoughts on Romans 11 and the Responsibility of the Church, Present Testimony: Volume 4 George V. Wigram

http://bibletruthpublishers.com/tho...the-church/present-testimony-volume-4/la85282


[end quoting; bold and underline mine; color mine in the enlarged portion]

Dear New Member RichMan, Your background is similiar to mine as i also was taught and embraced pre-trib rapture until the Day when the Holy Spirit had me study and Read Matthew 24 where the LORD made it clear as DAY:
"Immediately after the tribulation of those days.....I will Come and gather My Elect." Matt ch24
That was the beginning of my searching and studying the Truth as i completely 'Let Go' of anything that would contradict Scripture.

However, you gave me a good chuckle for in your post: "
"He said there is no discussion, only people preaching what they believe.
A lot of shouting, judging, misuse of Scripture, and very little truth and understanding.
I have not read all the post, but enough that I agree with him."
AND you End with:
"I will not debate you. I will not discuss this with you. I will not try to teach you the truth in the atmosphere that is present here. No one will listen. No reason to waste my time.
Just stating what I believe.
This is my first and last post on the subject. "

So you committed the very thing you supposedly are against - lol

Nevertheless, i say THANK YOU, for your Post as it was embraced and received, at least by myself, and i am sure others will be thankful as well.

This is a battleground against arena against the false and perverse doctrine of pre-trib rapture that divided the Body of Christ.
It was planned and executed by satan to weaken the Strength of Truth in His Body.
Therefore he will guard it at all costs as he has many recruiting stations.

When you come across a stronghold of satan, which is religion, there will never be a Truce except for those who compromise Truth.

Thus the religious leaders crucified their Messiah and all who follow Him to this present day.

Religion is easy. Sanctification in Truth is the hard path and few take that path all the way forward because it has few friends.

OK, here's my summary on this. God has always had a remnant of Israel who believe in the Christ from the beginning of time to this very moment.

The mystery that Paul revealed to us is that God has also chosen the Gentile (anyone who is not a Jew) for salvation. The vine illustration that Paul gives is imagining a grape vine. The root of the vine is Christ, all salvation comes through Him. The natural vine are the Jews, they were chosen from the beginning for salvation and to bring the Gentile world to Christ, so the Jew is the natural vine.

The Gentiles that come to Christ are grafted in, they are not the natural vine (the Jews) so there is a distinction between the Jew and Gentile.

As Paul tells us the Jew has an advantage in that they were given the Law, the Messiah Himself is a Jew. But then he tells us "there is no difference between the Jew and the Gentile." Rom. 10:12. All of us were in God's plan from the beginning for salvation.

So the difference that Paul pointed out in the vine illustration boils down to God creating a people (the Jews) from the faith of Abraham to bring the world to Christ. This is the way God chose to bring His salvation to the world.

This would make Abraham the father of all who believe in and on Jesus Christ by faith. With the Jew being the natural seed of Abraham, and the Gentile being the spiritual seed of Abraham.

Both are equal in salvation and both receive the promises of God to Abraham in Christ.

But there is a part of God's plan that has not been fulfilled as or yet concerning the natural vine (the Jews). They failed miserably in their original calling to present the Christ to the world. This is the purpose of the 1000 year reign of Christ, for the Jews to fulfil that calling. This is when Zechariah said, "and 10 men from all the nations will come to Jerusalem and take hold of the skirt of a Jew, and say, we will go with you, for we have heard that the Lord is with you."

This is the fulfilling of the original calling of Israel to bring the world to Christ, they will do this in the 1000 year reign of Christ as the world repopulates from the terrible loss of life which has recently took place at that time from the Great Tribulation.

After the 1000 years, then comes true the words of Paul, "there is no difference between the Jew and the Gentile." This will hold true into infinity.

Okay, so you're saying you believe there was an "Israel" [remnant of] existing on the earth PRIOR TO the time when "Jacob [/Israel]" existed on the earth?




From my post:





Additionally, see this article, "How the Term 'Israel' is Used in the NT" - The Israel of God, the term "Israel" in the New Testament (middletownbiblechurch.org)


ALL 73 occurrences of the term "Israel" in the NT *mean* "Israel" = )

AMEN - For the Scripture declares this: Isaiah ch53
He was oppressed and He was afflicted,
Yet He opened not His mouth;
He was led as a lamb to the slaughter,
And as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
So He opened not His mouth.
He was taken from prison and from judgment,
And who will declare His generation?
For He was cut off from the land of the living;
For the transgressions of My people He was stricken.
And they made His grave with the wicked—
But with the rich at His death,
Because He had done no violence,
Nor was any deceit in His mouth.

Now you must ask yourself this question = Does the First Coming of the LORD nullify the Plan and Purpose of His Second Coming?

That PLAN of GOD for His Second Coming is in Revelation and the writings of the Apostles and the Prophets.

“When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.

And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

The spiritual, however, was not first, but the natural, and then the spiritual. The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven. As was the earthly man, so also are those who are of the earth; and as is the heavenly man, so also are those who are of heaven.
And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so also shall we bear the likeness of the heavenly man.

Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
For the perishable must be clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.

When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come to pass: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”
“Where, O Death, is your victory?
Where, O Death, is your sting?”

Most certainly! That remnant began with Cain, as there is no proof from scripture that Adam and Eve ever repented.

At the time of the flood, that remnant was saved through Noah. When God brought back the nation of Israel in 1948, He brought with it His remnant still present in Israel today.

All the times Israel was taken from their land and forced to serve under other nations, God had His remnant, and when they returned the remnant returned with them.

From the days of Adam, salvation was by grace through faith in the coming Messiah by faith through the innocent animal sacrifice.

Since Christ has provided that sacrifice for us, we now look back to that sacrifice made for us for salvation.

Absolutely the birth pains begin before His Second Coming and we are in them even now.

The Birthing of the New Creation will not take place until after the Antichrist, just as the Apostle Paul & John and the LORD says.

For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of [f]corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

22For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. 24For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? 25But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.

Now, where does the LORD, the Apostles or Revelation mention this "7 Years".

I disagree that your reference to Rom8:22 is what Paul is talking about that will "COME UPON *them* SUDDENLY" (1Th5:1-3, referring to the ARRIVAL of "the DOTL" time period, which is NOT YET in existence).

Let's try to stick to the same Subject, rather than diverting to another... = )





[Rom8:22 - https://biblehub.com/greek/4944.htm ]

Oh no, Charlie; no remnant could ever begin Cain! He was the first murderer!

I agree that the nation of Israel was brought back in 1948 (in fulfillment of certain TIME-PROPHECIES concerning THEM); but I sense that you and I are not "defining" the nation of Israel in the same way... for I do not believe "the nation of Israel" existed during the days of Cain and Abel (etc), as you seem to believe it did.

The Apostle Paul knew exactly what he was saying and is in perfect and complete agreement with the Coming of the LORD.

Which is EXACTLY the SAME subject = His Coming and the Birth Pangs that precede His Coming.

Now, rather than diverting from the subject, where is the "7 Years" scripture(s) spoken by the LORD, the Apostles and Revelation.

I'm sorry, another brain cramp, I have um quite often!

I meant Abel!

Another brain cramp look at Post #5052

Correct.

And "the DOTL" ARRIVES at the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" (arriving "SUDDENLY" and unannounced)... according to 1 Thessalonians 5:1-3. Ponder that awhile.

(It's not AT the moment of His "RETURN," see [which WILL BE preceded by SIGNS and "Seals / Trumpets / Vials" and other noisy stuffs!]... but these BPs "PRECEDE" His Second Coming to the earth, and precede also the "AOD" / when 1260 days are yet remaining! [42mos])

That can easily apply the other way:

I liken yours and other assurance of a symbolic millennial reign of Christ to John F. Kennedy Jr.'s airplane crash--he so confident (and yes arrogant) in his flying skills and was not trusting the plane's flight controls to tell him his position. In consequence of this he lost his spatial awareness, believing he was flying up into the sky when in fact he was flying down and ended up crashing into the ocean taking his wife and his sister-in-law with him. You all by propagating this false teaching are taking others along with you.

Actually, the TEXT itself shows that: "He SHALL SEND His angels... and THEY shall gather His elect from the four winds..." (i.e. from where they had been "SCATTERED") - Matthew 24:31 https://biblehub.com/matthew/24-31.htm







[at the same "GREAT" trumpet referred to in Isaiah 27:[9]12-13]

They were only wrong in believing Earthly Kingdom would come at the first coming of the Messiah. They weren't wrong that there would be an Earthly kingdom. The truth is that the Earthly kingdom comes at the second coming of the Messiah. That's Pre-Mill.

The Jews and the Early church fathers believed in a Sabbath Millennium after 6000 years of humans on this Earth. We are approaching the end of that 6000 years or "six days". So, this Sabbath is coming.

Think of the work week. 6 days of usually pretty toilsome work, and then a rest day. Mankind has had this rough existence with an enemy that persecutes and harms them all the time. Doesn't it make sense that Christ would end all of that, imprison the enemy (satan) and give humanity a thousand year Sabbath? It would be good for humanity plus good for the Earth after how badly we have treated it.

Ewq, I considered you a 'friend on this site--but sending this was a low blow and uncalled for--what purposed did it serve, but just to get your dig in. The majority doesn't always mean someone is right, but the vast majority of Christians understand the highly symbolic language of Revelation and do not take the 1000 years literally.

The Birth of the Sons of God occurs at His Coming = Romans 8:18-25 , Hebrews 9:28 , 1 John 3:1-3

Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

Where is the '7 Years' in the Gospels, Apostles writings and Revelation?

This is why 'Thousand Years' is mentioned SIX Times in Revelation chapter 20 but everyone misses it.

SIX days of work and then His Coming and REST.

This is also why the LORD spoke of the 7th Day of REST TWICE in Genesis ch2 = TWO 7th Days of REST = 1st Coming and 2nd Coming.

Thus the heavens and the earth, and all the host of them, were finished.
And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done.
Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

FIRST Coming is the fulfillment of the Sabbath Day which is CHRIST = HE is our REST and anyone who works on the Sabbath/Salvation shall be put to death = not of works less anyone should boast. Adding or taking away to the Atonement of Christ thru religion is working on the Sabbath REST of God = RCC is a perfect example of this as is those who still want to keep the law.

SECOND Coming is the fulfillment of the Sabbath YEAR of REST as the LAND/CREATION Itself will enter into REST.

For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of [f]corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. 24For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? 25But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.