The False Teaching (& Truth) of what happens at the Rapture.

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TheDivineWatermark

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kleronomos said:
THEN WE WOULD HAVE BEEN GATHERED PROVING HOW INCORRECT THAT IS
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"OUR episynagoges UNTO HIM" will indeed occur AT ONE SINGULAR POINT IN TIME... it hasn't happened yet, however.

That's the "SNATCH / CAUGHT UP / harpazo" that WILL happen to/for/about "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (ONLY). It hasn't occurred yet, but WILL.



So, I'm not exactly sure what your point is.





Paul indeed (in these two chpts) is covering the TWO DISTINCT and CONTRASTING "beliefs" ppl WILL BE coming to FOLLOWING "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]"... when they are "IN THAT DAY [chpt1] / THE DAY OF THE LORD [chpt2] [EARTHLY-located TIME PERIOD]" (whether they are cognizant of that fact, or not)

... but it hasn't happened yet.



Paul is just supplying the SEQUENCE [and evidences] *proving* that the false claim (that the false claimants were PURPORTING, v.2) cannot be TRUE. It wasn't "present / already here [PERFECT indicative]" (meaning the EARTHLY-LOCATED DOTL--i.e. JUDGMENTS unfolding upon the earth OVER TIME!)
 
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Jackson123

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TheDivineWatermark said:
Study "the day of the Lord" throughout Scripture. It is ONLY EVER located ON THE EARTH.

Study what Paul said earlier regarding the Subject of "the day of the Lord" (1Th5:1-3)... he says the Thessalonians "KNOW PERFECTLY" the manner of its ARRIVAL (for it to play out UPON THE EARTH)

The false claimants of v.2 were ONLY covering the Subject of THAT WHICH will / is slated to unfold UPON THE EARTH ("the DOTL")--there is NOTHING in their words that convey ANYTHING WHATSOEVER about "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]"<--this was NOT what Subject THEY were communicating (per the TEXT of what Paul is informing about their false claim IN VERSE 2!)





All you are wanting to do is to incorrectly equate the Subject IN VERSE 1 (which PAUL is bringing to bear on the problem of v.2's false claim) with that of the Subject OF VERSE 2 (the content of the "false claim"... which [DOTL] is ONLY EVER *EARTHLY-LOCATED*... a TIME PERIOD)



Not what he says.

He says (instead) "3 that day [the earthly-located DOTL (from v.2)] will not be present if not shall have come THE DEPARTURE *FIRST* AND the man of sin BE REVEALED..." (he is "REVEALED" at the START of the "7 yr period"... not at its MIDDLE nor at its END)





Paul's v.1 Subject is NOT identical to the "false claimants'" Subject v.2. [<--this is your MIS-STEP in interpreting what Paul is actually conveying!]

V.3a starts out by pointing back to v.2's Subject... and then talks about how v.1's Subject (PAUL'S Subject) "FITS" in relation TO the OTHER Subject (time-wise / chronology-wise / SEQUENCE-wise)
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Paul wrote a letter on subject verse 1 second coming and rapture and to this gentile church he say verse 1 will not happen before man of sin being reveal/gt
 
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kleronomos

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TheDivineWatermark said:
Paul indeed (in these two chpts) is covering the TWO DISTINCT and CONTRASTING "beliefs" ppl WILL BE coming to FOLLOWING "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]"... when they are "IN THAT DAY [chpt1] / THE DAY OF THE LORD [chpt2] [EARTHLY-located TIME PERIOD]" (whether they are cognizant of that fact, or not)
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We don't get to ADD to the words of God. That has really bad repercussions. If God were the author of Confusion this would be perfect for an example of how to read His words.
 
K

kleronomos

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1Thessalonians 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

WOULD THAT BE NEED IN HEAVEN? FAITH IS OF THINGS NOT SEEN. IF YOU HAVE BEEN TAKEN TO HEAVEN THEN WHAT ARE YOU HOPING FOR, HAVEN'T YOU ALREADY ARRIVED?



9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

SALVATION BY OUR LORD OR SALVATION BY PRE TRIB RAPTURE? THE WORDS OF GOD JUST KEEP GETTING IT WRONG WHEN IT COME TO PRE TRIB RAPTURE. EVERY SINGLE TIME IT COULD BE MENTIONED IT ISN'T. NEVER NOT ONE TIME.


10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.


AGAIN, WHERE IS THE PRE TRIB RAPTURE 'LIVE TOGETHER' WITH HIM? DID GOD FORGET AGAIN? ITSN'T IT STARTING TO FEEL LIKE GOD DOESN'T KNOW ABOUT IT EITHER?

DID JESUS HIMSELF EVER MENTION IT?
 
cv5

cv5

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Jackson123 said:
2 Tess 2 is a letter from Paul to gentile church Tess and say rapture happen after Mann of sin being reveal/gt
Rev 13 say ac make a war against saint or Christian so Christian. Not raother yet
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Wrong. "The Departure" aka The Rapture occurs before the man of sin is revealed.
 
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TheDivineWatermark

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Jackson123 said:
Paul wrote a letter on subject verse 1 second coming and rapture and to this gentile church he say verse 1 will not happen before man of sin being reveal/gt
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Nope.

He says, "[v.2] the DOTL" will not be present before [one other thing *FIRST*... AND] the man of sin be revealed (same thing that 1Th5:1-3's "ARRIVAL" of the DOTL *is* the INITAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]"... OF the very ones JESUS SPOKE ABOUT... *so* MATT24:4 / Mk13:5 "A CERTAIN ONE ['a certain one' BRINGING DECEPTION]" aka what we know as SEAL #1 (the AC / man of sin).



[the "ARRIVAL" of the DOTL EARTHLY-located TIME PERIOD 1Th5:1-3 (of JUDGMENTs unfolding upon the EARTH) COINCIDES with the "ARRIVAL / COMING/ ADVENT / PRESENCE / parousia" (2Th2:9a) of the MAN OF SIN... IN HIS TIME!... it (THAT TIME PERIOD / the DOTL) will NOT BE PRESENT apart from his "presence / coming" ALSO]
 
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Jackson123

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cv5 said:
Wrong. "The Departure" aka The Rapture occurs before the man of sin is revealed.
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Why you reverse the Word 2 Tess 2 say rapture not happen before ac reveal
 
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TheDivineWatermark

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cv5 said:
Wrong. "The Departure" aka The Rapture occurs before the man of sin is revealed.
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YES!


This is what Paul is conveying in this text!


"... THE DEPARTURE *FIRST* AND [distinctly] the man of sin BE REVEALED"

(apart from these TWO facts, it CANNOT BE TRUE "that the DOTL IS PRESENT / IS ALREADY HERE [PERFECT indicative]" unfolding upon the earth, as the false claimants purported PER VERSE 2)





[he is "REVEALED" in SEAL #1 / the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3 (Matt24:4 / Mk13:5 'A CERTAIN ONE')]"... at the START of the "7 yrs"]
 
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Jackson123

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TheDivineWatermark said:
No it isn't. It's saying the DOTL will not be present apart from [/until] that.



A completely DISTINCT idea from that which you suggest it says.
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2 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming

himself to be God.
Read again that day( in this context mean rapture and second coming) will not coming before mom sin being reveal
So m of sin / gt than rapture and second coming
 
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TheDivineWatermark

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Jackson123 said:
2 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4 He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming

himself to be God.
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Read again that day( in this context mean rapture and second coming) will not coming before mom sin being reveal
So m of sin / gt than rapture and second coming
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No.

"THAT DAY" (v.3a) refers to v.2's "THE DAY OF THE LORD" (NOT "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" event, v.1)...

A TIME PERIOD which unfolds upon the earth OVER TIME (the false climants were saying it "IS PRESENT / ALREADY HERE [PERFECT indicative]"--study what "PERFECT indicative" means--they were NOT speaking of the "Rapture" event in their "false claim" OF VERSE 2, which v.3a IS POINTING BACK TO (not back to the Subject of v.1--THAT Subject was NOT ON THEIR RADAR. Stick with the TEXT of what Paul is TELLING US was the CONTENT of their FALSE CLAIM v.2--it's EARTHLY... an EARTHLY-LOCATED TIME PERIOD)
 
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Jackson123

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TheDivineWatermark said:
No.

"THAT DAY" (v.3a) refers to v.2's "THE DAY OF THE LORD" (NOT "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" event, v.1)...

A TIME PERIOD which unfolds upon the earth OVER TIME (the false climants were saying it "IS PRESENT / ALREADY HERE [PERFECT indicative]"--study what "PERFECT indicative" means--they were NOT speaking of the "Rapture" event in their "false claim" OF VERSE 2, which v.3a IS POINTING BACK TO (not back to the Subject of v.1--THAT Subject was NOT ON THEIR RADAR. Stick with the TEXT of what Paul is TELLING US was the CONTENT of their FALSE CLAIM v.2--it's EARTHLY... and EARTHLY-LOCATED TIME PERIOD)
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I can not force you to believe the context but the text on verse 1 is about rapture and second coming than is up to you
 
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TheDivineWatermark

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Jackson123 said:
I can not force you to believe the context but the text on verse 1 is about rapture and second coming than is up to you
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Verse 1 is INDEED ALL ABOUT "our RAPTURE [IN THE AIR]" (PAUL's Subject HE IS BRINGING TO BEAR [v.1] on the issue of the FALSE CLAIMANTS' purporting "that THE DOTL IS PRESENT / IS ALREADY HERE [PERFECT indicative]" v.2)




"3 that day [v.2's Subject] will not be present if not shall have come THE DEPARTURE *FIRST* [PAUL's v.1 Subject] AND the man of sin BE REVEALED..." (WHEN he is "REVEALED," that is ALSO WHEN indeed "the day of the Lord IS PRESENT"--but it wasn't true back in Paul's / the Thessalonians' day... it's YET FUTURE)
 
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TheDivineWatermark

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Jackson123 said:
I can not force you to believe the context but the text on verse 1 is about rapture and second coming than is up to you
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I do believe v.1 is about "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" (v.2 isn't).


Likewise, I cannot force you to define "the day of the Lord" as the Bible itself defines it (throughout).





[for the readers: Verse 1 is about "OUR episynagoges UNTO HIM" and ONLY US... NO ONE ELSE in the entire world!;
Verse 8b's "MANIFESTATION of His presence / parousia" is when "EVERY EYE" shall see Him, i.e. His Second Coming TO THE EARTH, it involves everyone in the world!]
 
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Jackson123

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TheDivineWatermark said:
Verse 1 is INDEED ALL ABOUT "our RAPTURE [IN THE AIR]" (PAUL's Subject HE IS BRINGING TO BEAR [v.1] on the issue of the FALSE CLAIMANTS' purporting "that THE DOTL IS PRESENT / IS ALREADY HERE [PERFECT indicative]" v.2)




"3 that day [v.2's Subject] will not be present if not shall have come THE DEPARTURE *FIRST* [PAUL's v.1 Subject] AND the man of sin BE REVEALED..." (WHEN he is "REVEALED," that is ALSO WHEN indeed "the day of the Lord IS PRESENT"--but it wasn't true back in Paul's / the Thessalonians' day... it's YET FUTURE)
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So you believe rapture before gt or after gt?
TheDivineWatermark said:
Verse 1 is INDEED ALL ABOUT "our RAPTURE [IN THE AIR]" (PAUL's Subject HE IS BRINGING TO BEAR [v.1] on the issue of the FALSE CLAIMANTS' purporting "that THE DOTL IS PRESENT / IS ALREADY HERE [PERFECT indicative]" v.2)




"3 that day [v.2's Subject] will not be present if not shall have come THE DEPARTURE *FIRST* [PAUL's v.1 Subject] AND the man of sin BE REVEALED..." (WHEN he is "REVEALED," that is ALSO WHEN indeed "the day of the Lord IS PRESENT"--but it wasn't true back in Paul's / the Thessalonians' day... it's YET FUTURE)
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So you believe rapture before or after gt
 
T

TheDivineWatermark

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kleronomos said:
We don't get to ADD to the words of God. That has really bad repercussions. If God were the author of Confusion this would be perfect for an example of how to read His words.
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Everywhere throughout Scripture, when the phrases "IN THAT DAY" and "the Day of the Lord" are used in the SAME context (as they are here in chpt 1 and in chpt 2) they refer to the SAME TIME PERIOD.

Prove to me otherwise.
 
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TheDivineWatermark

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Jackson123 said:
So you believe rapture before gt or after gt?

So you believe rapture before or after gt
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First off, let's define the phrase "the GREAT tribulation" biblically.

It refers ONLY to the LAST HALF of the "7 years"... aka consisting only of "1260 days" / "42 months" / 3.5yrs... the SECOND HALF which FOLLOWS the "AOD" point in time (per Matt24:15,21 / Dan12:11).

I've not been referencing "the GREAT tribulation" anywhere in these recent posts. Why are you? (just wondering)
 
ewq1938

ewq1938

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cv5 said:
Wrong. "The Departure" aka The Rapture occurs before the man of sin is revealed.
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Wrong. "The Departure" aka the Apostasy from Christ to the Antichrist.

This is what you wrongly have the passage saying

2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (the coming of Christ), and by our gathering together unto him (the Rapture),
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come (The coming of Christ and the Rapture), except there come a falling away first (A rapture can't happen until a rapture happens first??), and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;


The falling away is the Apostasy not the rapture. Even knowing that you pre-tribbers will still be stubborn and desire to commit this apostasia.
 
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Jackson123

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TheDivineWatermark said:
First off, let's define the phrase "the GREAT tribulation" biblically.

It refers ONLY to the LAST HALF of the "7 years"... aka consisting only of "1260 days" / "42 months" / 3.5yrs... the SECOND HALF which FOLLOWS the "AOD" point in time (per Matt24:15,21 / Dan12:11).

I've not been referencing "the GREAT tribulation" anywhere in these recent posts. Why are you? (just wondering)
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So you believe gt is second half of the ac being revealed or ac being reveal start 7 year begin
 
ewq1938

ewq1938

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TheDivineWatermark said:
No it isn't. It's saying the DOTL will not be present apart from [/until] that.



A completely DISTINCT idea from that which you suggest it says.
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lol, the words "day of the Lord" isn't even in the verse. See how you have to use eisegesis and add to what was said and remove "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ". Great scholarship!
 
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