Interpreting the Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus: It's Really Good News!

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Journeyman

Journeyman

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Duckybill said:
I didn't interpret it. It's in every English Bible I know of, even the JW Bible. Hell will be filled with people who don't believe in Hell.
"The rich man also died"
"being in torments"
"he cried"
"I am tormented in this flame"
"this place of torment"

Amen Jesus!
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Our Lord didn't tell the story of the rich man and Lazarus for the purpose teaching about the afterlife. But if we look at it from the angle of torment after death, all the elements contained in it are no different from the torment the unsaved will experience at the judgement seat of Christ., the GWTJ, his appearin, etc. They're all the same.
 
R

Runningman

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Duckybill said:
Totally evasive!
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From my perspective I didn’t evade anything. You know, this is a message board and you don’t really know whoever you happen to be talking to. Whatever is going on in your mind other people won’t necessarily understand. Try to not assume the worst of people and have a little more grace and patience.
 
posthuman

posthuman

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TheLearner said:
I am curious why God wipes away our tears?
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If a man is annihilated he also has no more tears. Anyone who ceases to exist has rest, and is untroubled - they have no more fear, nor worry, nor despair.

I think this topic has more to do with our love for others, that we would rather see them not tormented, than it has to do with what scripture actually describes. We abhor the idea of those who hate God being forever in despair, and we would rather think they will simply disappear. So we project our own sense of justice onto God and imagine we must be right.
 
T

TheLearner

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Runningman said:
Now it's my turn. Why do you insist, like the Catholics do, that the devil will have eternal life in the lake of fire and never die? The Bible says that the devil is put to death. How does someone get tormented forever, also put to death (But not really dying so they were never put to death) when sometimes forever doesn't mean forever?
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Brother it is my impression that angels do not go out of existence.

Luke 20:36 (NASB95)
36 for they cannot even die anymore, because they are like angels, and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.
 
T

TheLearner

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Runningman said:
JWs are the only ones who believe the soul be can destroyed? lol
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What did the Sadducees believe about death? Hell proper, second death and resurrection?

Matthew 22:32
I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
 
T

TheLearner

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Runningman said:
Weigh more of the scriptures to get a better idea of what the "eternal punishment" is referring to.

The exact same Greek word is used here:

John 3:36 (NASB)
36The one who believes in the Son has eternal life; but the one who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.”

2 Thessalonians 1:9 (NASB)
9These people will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

We can gather from a variety of verses that eternal life is not congruent with eternal punishment because the eternal punishment is they "will not see life." They will have eternal destruction - eternal destruction means ruin and death. That's consistent with the end of everyone not written in the book of life: they go to the second death. This means that those who have eternal punishment do not have eternal life.

This isn't a New Testament teaching either, the Old Testament has a lot of references to the death of the wicked soul. This is the typical life and death dichotomy of the Bible from Genesis to Revelation.
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ohn 3
Easy-to-Read Version
Jesus and Nicodemus
3 There was a man named Nicodemus, one of the Pharisees. He was an important Jewish leader. 2 One night he came to Jesus and said, “Teacher, we know that you are a teacher sent from God. No one can do these miraculous signs that you do unless they have God’s help.”

3 Jesus answered, “I assure you, everyone must be born again. Anyone who is not born again cannot be in God’s kingdom.”

4 Nicodemus said, “How can a man who is already old be born again? Can he go back into his mother’s womb and be born a second time?”

5 Jesus answered, “Believe me when I say that everyone must be born from water and the Spirit. Anyone who is not born from water and the Spirit cannot enter God’s kingdom. 6 The only life people get from their human parents is physical. But the new life that the Spirit gives a person is spiritual. 7 Don’t be surprised that I told you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it wants to. You hear it, but you don’t know where it is coming from or where it is going. It is the same with everyone who is born from the Spirit.”

9 Nicodemus asked, “How is all this possible?”

10 Jesus said, “You are an important teacher of Israel, and you still don’t understand these things? 11 The truth is, we talk about what we know. We tell about what we have seen. But you people don’t accept what we tell you. 12 I have told you about things here on earth, but you do not believe me. So I’m sure you will not believe me if I tell you about heavenly things! 13 The only one who has ever gone up to heaven is the one who came down from heaven—the Son of Man.

14 “Moses lifted up the snake in the desert.[a] It is the same with the Son of Man. He must be lifted up too. 15 Then everyone who believes in him can have eternal life.”

16 Yes, God loved the world so much that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him would not be lost but have eternal life. 17 God sent his Son into the world. He did not send him to judge the world guilty, but to save the world through him. 18 People who believe in God’s Son are not judged guilty. But people who do not believe are already judged, because they have not believed in God’s only Son. 19 They are judged by this fact: The light[c] has come into the world. But they did not want light. They wanted darkness, because they were doing evil things. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light. They will not come to the light, because the light will show all the bad things they have done. 21 But anyone who follows the true way comes to the light. Then the light will show that whatever they have done was done through God.

Jesus and John the Baptizer
22 After this, Jesus and his followers went into the area of Judea. There he stayed with his followers and baptized people. 23 John was also baptizing people in Aenon, a place near Salim with plenty of water. People were going there to be baptized. 24 This was before John was put in prison.

25 Some of John’s followers had an argument with another Jew about religious washing.[d] 26 Then they came to John and said, “Teacher, remember the man who was with you on the other side of the Jordan River? He is the one you were telling everyone about. He is also baptizing people, and many are going to him.”

27 John answered, “A person can receive only what God gives. 28 You yourselves heard me say, ‘I am not the Messiah. I am only the one God sent to prepare the way for him.’ 29 The bride always belongs to the bridegroom. The friend who helps the bridegroom just waits and listens. He is happy just to hear the bridegroom talk. That’s how I feel now. I am so happy that he is here. 30 He must become more and more important, and I must become less important.

The One Who Comes From Heaven
31 “The one who comes from above is greater than all others. The one who is from the earth belongs to the earth. He talks about things that are on the earth. But the one who comes from heaven is greater than all others. 32 He tells what he has seen and heard, but people don’t accept what he says. 33 Whoever accepts what he says has given proof that God speaks the truth. 34 God sent him, and he tells people what God says. God gives him the Spirit fully. 35 The Father loves the Son and has given him power over everything. 36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life. But those who do not obey the Son will never have that life. They cannot get away from God’s anger.”

Me: "that life" clearly refers to life in Heaven.
 
T

TheLearner

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2 Thessalonians 1:9

Geneva Bible of 1587
Which shall be punished with euerlasting perdition(Loss), from the presence of the Lord, & from the glory of his power,

"

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damned adjective
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\ ˈdam(d) \
damneder\ ˈdam-dər \; damnedest or damndest\ ˈdam-dəst \
Definition of damned (Entry 1 of 2)
1: DAMNABLE
this damned smog
2: COMPLETE, UTTER —often used as an intensive
a damned shame
3: EXTRAORDINARY —used in the superlative
the damnedest contraption you ever saw
damned adverb
Definition of damned (Entry 2 of 2)
: EXTREMELY, VERY
a damned good job
Synonyms & Antonyms
More Example Sentences
Learn More About damned

Synonyms & Antonyms for damned
Synonyms: Adjective

absolute, all-out, arrant, blank, blooming [chiefly British], bodacious [Southern & Midland], categorical (also categoric), clean, complete, consummate, cotton-picking, crashing, damn, dead, deadly, definite, downright, dreadful, fair, flat, flat-out, out-and-out, outright, perfect, plumb, profound, pure, rank, regular, sheer, simple, stark, stone, straight-out, thorough, thoroughgoing, total, unadulterated, unalloyed, unconditional, unmitigated, unqualified, utter, very
Synonyms: Adverb

achingly, almighty, archly, awful, awfully, badly, beastly, blisteringly, bone, colossally, corking, cracking, damn, dang, deadly, desperately, eminently, enormously, especially, ever, exceedingly (also exceeding), extra, extremely, fabulously, fantastically, far, fiercely, filthy, frightfully, full, greatly, heavily, highly, hugely, immensely, incredibly, intensely, jolly, majorly, mightily, mighty, monstrous [chiefly dialect], mortally, most, much, particularly, passing, rattling, real, really, right, roaring, roaringly, seriously, severely, so, sore, sorely, spanking, specially, stinking, such, super, supremely, surpassingly, terribly, that, thumping, too, unco, uncommonly, vastly, very, vitally, way, whacking, wicked, wildly
Antonyms: Adverb

little, negligibly, nominally, slightly, somewhat"
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/damned#synonyms

Bishops' Bible of 1568
Which shalbe punisshed with euerlastyng dampnation, from the presence of the Lorde, & fro the glorie of his power:

Literal Standard Version
who will suffer justice—continuous destruction—from the face of the LORD, and from the glory of His strength,

Smith's Literal Translation
Who shall undergo punishment, eternal ruin from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Literal Emphasis Translation
Who will pay the just penalty of unending ruination away from the face of the Lord and away from the glory of His mighty strength;

Haweis New Testament
who shall receive punishment, even eternal perdition, from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power:

As you can see it can mean Loss, Ruin and being removed from Presence of God.

Think what it would be like to experience God's loving presence and then being removed from it.
 
Journeyman

Journeyman

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TheLearner said:
God is Just and it is his doing, thus it is just.
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Torment without end isn't Gods doing.

TheLearner said:
That sounds like torment to me.
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The unsaved are tormented forever, but the "forever" being referred to pertains to the sins they committed for their entire lives, not eternity. Forever in the sense of the beginning of a sinful life until the end of it.
 
Journeyman

Journeyman

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TheLearner said:
2 Thessalonians 1:9

Geneva Bible of 1587
Which shall be punished with euerlasting perdition(Loss), from the presence of the Lord, & from the glory of his power,

"

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damned adjective
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\ ˈdam(d) \
damneder\ ˈdam-dər \; damnedest or damndest\ ˈdam-dəst \
Definition of damned (Entry 1 of 2)
1: DAMNABLE
this damned smog
2: COMPLETE, UTTER —often used as an intensive
a damned shame
3: EXTRAORDINARY —used in the superlative
the damnedest contraption you ever saw
damned adverb
Definition of damned (Entry 2 of 2)
: EXTREMELY, VERY
a damned good job
Synonyms & Antonyms
More Example Sentences
Learn More About damned

Synonyms & Antonyms for damned
Synonyms: Adjective

absolute, all-out, arrant, blank, blooming [chiefly British], bodacious [Southern & Midland], categorical (also categoric), clean, complete, consummate, cotton-picking, crashing, damn, dead, deadly, definite, downright, dreadful, fair, flat, flat-out, out-and-out, outright, perfect, plumb, profound, pure, rank, regular, sheer, simple, stark, stone, straight-out, thorough, thoroughgoing, total, unadulterated, unalloyed, unconditional, unmitigated, unqualified, utter, very
Synonyms: Adverb

achingly, almighty, archly, awful, awfully, badly, beastly, blisteringly, bone, colossally, corking, cracking, damn, dang, deadly, desperately, eminently, enormously, especially, ever, exceedingly (also exceeding), extra, extremely, fabulously, fantastically, far, fiercely, filthy, frightfully, full, greatly, heavily, highly, hugely, immensely, incredibly, intensely, jolly, majorly, mightily, mighty, monstrous [chiefly dialect], mortally, most, much, particularly, passing, rattling, real, really, right, roaring, roaringly, seriously, severely, so, sore, sorely, spanking, specially, stinking, such, super, supremely, surpassingly, terribly, that, thumping, too, unco, uncommonly, vastly, very, vitally, way, whacking, wicked, wildly
Antonyms: Adverb

little, negligibly, nominally, slightly, somewhat"
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/damned#synonyms

Bishops' Bible of 1568
Which shalbe punisshed with euerlastyng dampnation, from the presence of the Lorde, & fro the glorie of his power:

Literal Standard Version
who will suffer justice—continuous destruction—from the face of the LORD, and from the glory of His strength,

Smith's Literal Translation
Who shall undergo punishment, eternal ruin from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

Literal Emphasis Translation
Who will pay the just penalty of unending ruination away from the face of the Lord and away from the glory of His mighty strength;

Haweis New Testament
who shall receive punishment, even eternal perdition, from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power:

As you can see it can mean Loss, Ruin and being removed from Presence of God.

Think what it would be like to experience God's loving presence and then being removed from it.
Click to expand...
Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live:....Eze.33:11

Gods purpose in suffering is so sinners repent. There is no Godly reason to allow suffering without end.
 
S

Sipsey

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I find it interesting that there are a good many attributes of God and His judgement that are absolutely humanly incomprehensible, yet some people insist they know exactly why and when God will do something. It’s human nature to want to know everything, yet that very nature is a battle every one of us must concede.
 
Diakonos

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Phoneman-777 said:
Can we really declare "Abraham's bosom" as literal and then point to that as "proof" that it's literal? Isn't that the very definition of "circular reasoning"?
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Yes. To be "in [someone's] bosom" means to be close to them, as in "by their side".
Lazarus "was carried away by the angels to Abraham’s bosom" (a location).
The rich man saw that Lazarus was close to Abraham, just as Jesus was said to be "in the bosom of the Father".
 
posthuman

posthuman

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Journeyman said:
Yes that's true. A lot of people think God torments sinners for some reason other than repentance.
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Is that why Satan and the beast and the false prophet are cast into the lake of fire? So they will repent?
 
Journeyman

Journeyman

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posthuman said:
Is that why Satan and the beast and the false prophet are cast into the lake of fire? So they will repent?
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No and that's the point. Repentance is only accepted in this life. At the judgement seat of Christ, death and the place of the dead are annihilated.
 
Journeyman

Journeyman

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justbyfaith said:
Actually, it is (Revelation 20:10).
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When compared to all scripture dealing with the unsaved, Rev.20:10 shows us that the devil shares the same fate as unrepentant mankind, which is torment for the sins he committed ""his entire life" <--- this "forever", not for eternity.
 
L

LactoseIntolerant

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Duckybill said:
According to you Jesus is a "hellmonger".
Matthew 23:33 (NKJV)
33 Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell?
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Your logic escapes me. I think your rage is affecting your reading skills.
That is what happens when hell settles in ones brain. Thinking like a torturer gets you in a torture mindset. Cleanse it while you still can.

Is your mouth foaming?
 
L

LactoseIntolerant

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posthuman said:
​
When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. ​
(Matthew 25:31-32)​
​
all the nations.
people.


Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’​
Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.​
(Matthew 25:41-46)​
​
​
these nations - people from every nation - go into eternal punishment or into eternal life.
He judges us, like sheep and goats, dividing us.

those He knows, into aeons-of-aeons life.
those He never knew, into aeons-of-aeons punishment, in the place prepared for the devil and his angels.
as earlier pointed out, if anyone wants to change the meaning of the word eternal here - well it's exactly the same word describing life for the sheep as punishment for the goats. so that's an issue.
that's where yes, you get a connection to the 3rd of the stars swept by the dragon's tail - because the lake of burning fire and sulphur is prepared for them. but people, living souls, go there too.

the lake of fire is not cast into the lake of fire.
the first death is cast into the second death.

is this conceptually hard?
or do people just not like it?
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So you are saying there are 2 hells? The first death is hell 1 and second death is hell 2 forever and ever.
 
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