The False Teaching (& Truth) of what happens at the Rapture.

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TheDivineWatermark

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Absolutely said:
If you look at mat 24 the parable of the virgins, you will see exactly what happens in those left behind and why.
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Disagree that ANYTHING in His Olivet Discourse speaks to the Subject of "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]"

(it simply was not the Subject that Jesus was covering there, but rather, His Second Coming to the earth FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom and the specific, LIMITED time-period that immediately precedes LEADS UP TO *that*... [except for about 12 or so verses in Lk21:12-24a,b which speak of the 70ad events])
 
riverhooks

riverhooks

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Absolutely said:
Maybe if i look them up.
Mat 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

We see vividly;
Jesus comes after the trib.
The ENTIRE POPULATION mourns.
The elect are gathered by angels, not Jesus, from heaven, not earth.
^^^^^^^one "coming"^^^^^^^^^

Now let's look at the other coming of Matthew 24
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
We see vividly pictired;
The prejudgemnt setting
Noah entering the ark( the vessel taking him miles into the sky) where he would dwell in the heavens FOR THE DURATION OF The JUDGEMEMT/TRIB/WRATH.
Then wecsee the catching away PREJUDGEMENT, of one believer raptured, one staying. Vividly pictured.
Then we see the pretrib command;
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Very plain and vivid depictions of 2 SEPARATE AND TOTALLY DIFFERENT "comings".

How do you deal with that?
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Pretty simply , The Lord Returns for His Church on The Last Day and The Last Trumpet. If one is taken and another left I assume you are using Matthew 24 as a proof text for 2 comings of Christ. More specifically according pretribulationalism for the church and later with the church. Problem is Absolutely it is pretty clear that Matthew 24 is the same event as the first resurrection described at the coming of the Lord and the catching up of the saints as described in 1 Thessalonians 4:16.17. God has not appointed us to wrath but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ , I myself was not dogmatic about my endtime beliefs until I was taught from scripture. In the seventies during the outpouring. of the Spirit worldwide during the Jesus people days pretribulationist books appeared in mass. Usually dramitized , Calvary Chapel took up this view . The Blood of Cross is essential , be ready for the Lords return is essential , end time views as to the nature of the Lords return is not essential . I pursued God and when it was my time to firm up what I believed about The Lords return , I found the overwhelming literally overwhelming message of scripture was post tribulationist view that catching up of the saints was at The Second Coming of Christ. The seven year gap , between the rapture and the Lords return turned out to be simply theological speculation. Scripture is not dispensationalism is the key to getting the timing down. Pretribulationists assert that there will be a seven year Great Tribulation where bowls of wrath are poured up the earth and the scripture says that we are not appointed to wrath. I assume I won’t be . I am not looking for a rapture prior to the Second Coming of Christ. Other wise the Blessed Hope would be the rapture , instead of the return of Jesus the second coming of Christ , not the third. I don’t know how it all works because frankly I am convinced that the church is in the world when living believers are caught up to meet the Lord in the air, but not preceding those who sleep the dead in Christ rise first. Got plenty of scriptures to support this view . Matthew 24 is not a proof text of 2 comings of Jesus or shouldn’t be anyway.
 
riverhooks

riverhooks

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cv5 said:
Still waiting for any postribber to RIGHTLY define for us the identity of the 24 Elders of Revelation. For some reason no one wants to touch that with a 10 foot pole. Understandably.
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Haven’t got a clue who the 24 elders are . Who do you say they are ?
 
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TheDivineWatermark

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riverhooks said:
when living believers are caught up to meet the Lord in the air, but not preceding those who sleep the dead in Christ rise first. Got plenty of scriptures to support this view .
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It sounds to me as if you are suggesting that "the dead in Christ" will arrive IN THE AIR / CLOUDS at a point (even slightly) PRECEDING when the "we which are alive and remain" will be caught up (as if, to MEET THEM THERE where they'll ALREADY BE LOCATED ahead of us [even if slightly ahead]);

But this is NOT what the text is conveying.



When the text states that "the dead in Christ SHALL RISE FIRST," is it speaking of their being BODILY RESURRECTED ['to stand again'] FROM THE DEAD (like, up out of their graves--BODILY--to "stand again" on the earth)... This occurs just before ALL OF US (together at the SAME TIME) will be "CAUGHT UP / SNATCHED" (TO the meeting OF THE LORD... IN THE AIR)
 
cv5

cv5

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riverhooks said:
Haven’t got a clue who the 24 elders are . Who do you say they are ?
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Wow that's quite a devastating omission. It's not like there haven't been thousands upon thousands of commentaries written on that topic. As to who I think they are just back up a couple of pages and read about it.
 
riverhooks

riverhooks

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cv5 said:
Wow that's quite a devastating omission. It's not like there haven't been thousands upon thousands of commentaries written on that topic. As to who I think they are just back up a couple of pages and read about it.
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"Now you are the people and wisdom will die with you” Job. please enlighten me . If it is relevant to your eschatology.
 
riverhooks

riverhooks

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TheDivineWatermark said:
It sounds to me as if you are suggesting that "the dead in Christ" will arrive IN THE AIR / CLOUDS at a point (even slightly) PRECEDING when the "we which are alive and remain" will be caught up (as if, to MEET THEM THERE where they'll ALREADY BE LOCATED ahead of us [even if slightly ahead]);

But this is NOT what the text is conveying.



When the text states that "the dead in Christ SHALL RISE FIRST," is it speaking of their being BODILY RESURRECTED ['to stand again'] FROM THE DEAD (like, up out of their graves--BODILY--to "stand again" on the earth)... This occurs just before ALL OF US (together at the SAME TIME) will be "CAUGHT UP / SNATCHED" (TO the meeting OF THE LORD... IN THE AIR)
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The language without getting into the Greek is referring to going out to meet someone and joining their company and escorting them back to earth. I’m not confused about this . I want God to return . As the lightning shines from the east to the west. And fix this mess down here. But alas I will probably be one of the spirits of the just men made perfect who gets his glorified body in the first resurrection.
 
riverhooks

riverhooks

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cv5 said:
Wow that's quite a devastating omission. It's not like there haven't been thousands upon thousands of commentaries written on that topic. As to who I think they are just back up a couple of pages and read about it.
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Thousands of commentaries , I’ll go with the scripture . It is a mystery.
 
cv5

cv5

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Rev 11:11, 12
"Now after 3 1/2 days, the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them. And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them,
"COME UP HERE". And they ascended to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies saw them."

So what is this? The 11/16ths tribulation resurrection?

Rev 4:1
"...COME UP HERE..."
 
cv5

cv5

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riverhooks said:
Thousands of commentaries , I’ll go with the scripture . It is a mystery.
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No identity could be LESS mysterious than that of the 24 Elders. The list of their attributes is specific and lengthy......and quite unequivocal as to their identity.

Not one post-tribber has dared to enter into that discussion. They deny or ignore it all together just as you have done.
 
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TheDivineWatermark

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riverhooks said:
so you say
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No, that is what the text itself is saying where it states, "...caught up together with [G4862 - in union with] them...," which means, "caught up" at the same time that they will be caught up.

The verb must be connected with the adverb (but you are disregarding this fact)
 
riverhooks

riverhooks

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cv5 said:
No identity could be LESS mysterious than that of the 24 Elders. The list of their attributes is specific and lengthy......and quite unequivocal as to their identity.

Not one post-tribber has dared to enter into that discussion. They deny or ignore it all together just as you have done.
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Well , I suspect you are using scripture to exalt yourself in that that I quite honestly said I didn’t know who they were and asked who you thought they were . And you appear to be avoiding sharing your inside information. That’s ok Keep it to yourself or just mock those who don’t know your big secret. It’s not a secret right everyone should know who the 24 elders are . Take your meds.
 
riverhooks

riverhooks

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TheDivineWatermark said:
It's not a mystery. They clearly say, "hast redeemed US to God by thy blood out-of EVERY..." Rev5:9
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That’s laughable . I thought you were going to tell me their identity. i.e. Moses , & Elijah , Maybe Paul , and the 12 apostles of the lamb and a few others . US. ??? you funny
 
cv5

cv5

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riverhooks said:
Well , I suspect you are using scripture to exalt yourself in that that I quite honestly said I didn’t know who they were and asked who you thought they were . And you appear to be avoiding sharing your inside information. That’s ok Keep it to yourself or just mock those who don’t know your big secret. It’s not a secret right everyone should know who the 24 elders are . Take your meds.
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Your failure to read my earlier posts is your fault not mine. What happened your Bible? You just can't seem to find it to look at chapters 4 and 5? It's literally a two-minute read at best.

And yes the 24 Elders are certainly the Church, raptured before the chapter 6 tribulation begins. Exactly as Christ has promised us.
 
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