Difference between Baptized with the Holy Ghost and being FILLED with the Holy Ghost vs

The bible scholars are wrong. There are no exceptions.

John 20:22 is a COMMANDMENT which is continued in the next verse as part of the "Great Commission" (people usually think of the Matt 28:18-20 account). I put it in quotes because God didn't call it that... but that's what man calls it when Jesus was giving COMMANDMENTS unto his apostles before he ascends to his Father.


They are the commandments to:

1. Wait for the Promise of the Holy Ghost until you receive it.
2. Then go Baptize in my (Jesus) name for remission of sins.

That set of commandments is recorded in all for gospels and is repeated (partly as proof that the obedience to it hasn't been fulfilled yet) in Acts 1:4,5&8.

The John 20:22-23 version may be a little less clear about their need to wait/tarry in Jerusalem but verse 22 is VERY clear that it is a commandment that must be submitted to.... and verse 23 is VERY clear about the necessity of baptism.

The other versions make it clear that they are commanded to baptize. John 20:23 makes it clear that the remission of sins is in the hands of the baptizer, not the believer, (otherwise Jesus' statement is invalid).


See the Mark 16:14-16 & Matt 28:18-19 versions to see that they are being commanded to baptize.
See Mark 1:4 & Luke 3:3 for verification that water baptism was established by God as a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. ("remit" in John 20:22 is the verb version of the noun "remission")

That water baptism of repentance for remission of sins was incorporated without change by Jesus into his own ministry. (See John 3:22-23 & John 4:1-2)

Baptism is simply the tool/mechanism that brings about that remission to those who believe the preaching and submit to the action. That's why Mark says "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved" and Jesus says "whose soever's sins ye remit, they are remitted...and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained. Belief must include the follow-through or it is just seed sown that bears no fruit.

Wansvic, I know that you already knew these things about baptism (John 20:22 would be the only new stuff for you) but I wanted to show how it all relates for those who may not have heard it explained before.

For most others: Don't just accept/reject what I said. Actually look up those verses that are referenced because what I just said is probably WAY different than what you've been taught by others. It might take prayer and study. Jesus said that if the people wouldn't go unto the Father, they wouldn't be able to believe what he was saying. I'm saying that this stuff doesn't just roll off the page either. Search it out. Don't just trust what you've been taught.. or even your own understanding.

Love in Jesus to all,
Kelby

I should have included the reference of John 20:22 AND 23 so it can be seen that it is part of a larger statement of need for obedience.

John 20:22-23 KJV

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

I like your willingness to look at details. That's not EXACTLY agreeing with the suggestion that Wansvic has a wrong understanding about speaking in tongues, but I get (and appreciate) your idea that "alluding" is not so far from "assuming something that isn't there".

Let me answer your question about the necessity of speaking in tongues another way, that takes into account the danger of assuming things that aren't stated.

Jesus said "God is a spirit. They that worship him, must worship him in spirit and in truth." as part of explaining the soon-to-be-outpoured Holy Ghost (the Spirit and "living waters" he was discussing with the Samaritan woman in John 4:21-24).

This reality began on the day of Pentecost as the Holy Ghost/Spirit began to be outpoured and they "were all filled with the Holy Ghost and began to speak with other tongues as the Spirit gave them utterance".

Now, if you're detail-oriented, you'll notice that in this passage it DOESN'T clearly state that the speaking in tongues was fulfilling Jesus' statement of a requirement for the TRUE worshipers to worship God IN SPIRIT. So at this point, it can only be assumed that the speaking in tongues (or some other thing) qualifies as worship in the spirit.

But I'm guessing that in "being a 3rd generation Pentecostal", you already know that there is another scripture that DOES clearly state that "If I pray in and unknown tongue, my Spirit prayeth" - 1 Corinthians 14:14. EVEN with the inclusion of a clear statement of the understanding being unfruitful.

We might also note that it COULD be concluded that the next few verse are admonishing us to include some fruitfulness for the understanding...perhaps by praying in a tongue that IS understandable by man. But those assertions also are just assumptions not clear statements, and as such are non-conclusive.

BUT... more importantly, fruitful understanding did NOT undo the clear statement that praying (speaking) in an unknown tongue DOES qualify as worshiping the Father in Spirit because "my Spirit prayeth" even if my understanding is unfruitful. Plus, verse 2 already clarified that the speaking in tongues was "unto God"

So, with a clear statement that speaking in tongues IS Spirit-prayer (a.k.a. a form of worshiping the Father in Spirit), the question switches to "Now that we've found ONE thing (speaking in tongues) that qualifies as worshiping God in Spirit, can you find a biblical statement (not an assumption) that some other thing is defined as a form of worshiping in Spirit?"

IF NOT, then speaking in tongues remains the only biblically accredited method for true worshipers to worship God in Spirit... and therefore remains a requirement before someone can claim to be a true worshiper. That's why people say it is necessary.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

The true worshippers have nothing to do with tongues Because before praying in the Spirit is mentioned Paul addressed

Those I speak with the tongues of angels and men and have not to love it prophets nothing. In addition, Jesus said those will come to Him saying Lord did we not prophesy in your name? His response will be to those " I Never Knew you". Matthew 7:21

My replies are really to these 2 posts one which i cut short for the sake of space. Been a couple pages now and still no scripture passage that says if one does not speak in he is not filled with the Holy Spirit. Where does the Word say that is so? I know it is not there as does any one reading this . So some how it is OK to say the Word says XYZ when it does not? How does a Spirit Filled Christian say the Word says XYZ when it clearly does not.

To say some thing like ....my understanding tells me the evidence of the Baptism of the Holy Ghost is tongues, here are my reasons why,,,,,

You've got the same challenge as what was presented to Beckie... Before you could discount the ONE thing that IS directly stated as qualifying, you'd have to prove there is another.

And I'll say this the same way it was presented to us many years ago. "You don't know what you got." (even though that's not proper English wording, the point still carries).

You have something that not everyone around you has. And you don't want to offend people. (That is a POPULAR thought process). But if you don't understand the value of what you have, you run the risk of not communicating the correct value to others.

When you run out of knowledge of what to ask, or how to praise him fully, you can switch to praying and singing in the Spirit, KNOWING that you are "giving thanks well" because the spirit maketh intercession with groanings that cannot be uttered (in our understanding) because we know not what to pray for as we ought. THAT is a function of speaking/praying/singing in tongues. You have that. If you can prove that there is something else that does that, perhaps you could say you are properly informing and preparing the people. But if not... (I'm not sure how to end that without creating a danger of a poor knee-jerk reaction) So I'll just end with love (as your comment does accurately present as being of great value and importance).

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

Not everything is either or because some one believes it to be so.

@Beckie
We will ALL give account of the knowledge, understanding and wisdom of the word we accept.
As well we will give account of OUR words,actions,thoughts,attitudes ECT....get the picture.
I have had communications with RichMan and we are in forgiveness that I caused him hurt.

You,I was NOT communicating with however you've chosen this aggressive attitude to address myself and others.

So you were Pentecostal but NOW you want to dispute all your were taught,that's YOUR choice.

There is no better way to worship God than in his fullness ( take that to mean whatever you like it to be)

I will not answer for anyone but myself and I won't have an accuser as I stand before Christ to be judged by him!

So you were Pentecostal but NOW you want to dispute all your were taught,that's YOUR choice.

LOL you do assume a lot. Posting on a public forum leaves our words on display. Please post the Scripture to back your view point.

the point is IF one worships the gifts of the Holy Spirit that is not worshiping GOD it is making an idol out of the gift. Jesus said the
Holy Spirit will speak of ME and not Himself. The Holy Spirit will never lead one to have the attention taken away from Christ to be placed on a gift over the Lord Jesus Gift of salvation and the Cross.

The word of God doesn't say we "have something that not everyone around you has." The gift of the Holy Spirit is distributed by HIM as HE sees fit, however, at the same time, we are told to seek and desire the gifts. why?
The Holy Spirit will not force one to be used in a gift FYI, you can refuse a gift. You can refuse to obey as we all can do and have done at times. I am not discounting anything what I am saying is in response to this comment:

"So, with a clear statement that speaking in tongues IS Spirit-prayer (a.k.a. a form of worshiping the Father in Spirit), the question switches to "Now that we've found ONE thing (speaking in tongues) that qualifies as worshiping God in Spirit, can you find a biblical statement (not an assumption) that some other thing is defined as a form of worshiping in Spirit?"

IF NOT, then speaking in tongues remains the only biblically accredited method for true worshipers to worship God in Spirit... and therefore remains a requirement before someone can claim to be a true worshiper. That's why people say it is necessary."

the problem with tongues as being worshiping in the Spirit as the only biblical method is impossible.


Because Jesus did not say God seek those to worship Him in Spirit.

John 4:24 Jesus said, "God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

Spirit and in Truth. they are both present when Worship is done unto the Lord.


Gifts can be false and duplicated, YET GOD IS NOT MOCKED HE KNOWS FULLY WHO IS OF TRUTH AND A LIE.


Jesus said this to the Samaritan women who got religious with the Lord about worshiping the correct mountain.

Tongues are not the method of true spiritual worship but can be used in bringing worship to God through all the Gifts, not worship of the gifts.

To worship in Spirit and truth is as Jesus said :


John 4;22-

22 You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews 23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him.

what is the true worship of God that HE seeks?

• We worship God because he is God. Period.
• it is done in holiness and obedience
• it is personal and corporate
• it is alone and with the body of Christ
• it is seeking His face and not just HIS hand
• it exposes our sin and causes us to repent
• open our mind to who Jesus is and set us free to surrender to HIM
• worship is Spirit-filled and in line with the word of God
• worship is diverse and dynamic, and humbling

Worship is to God, from our heart, soul, body, and mind with all it is Love to God because of Who HE is and what HE has done:

God has :

1. loved us and gave His only son
2. God has paid the price for our sin
3. God has raised Jesus from the Dead
4. God has SAVE US FROM OUR SIN
5. God has given us eternal life to those who have placed their faith in the Lord Jesus Christ
6. God has empowered the body of Christ with HIS Holy Spirit who is in US and comes upon us.

I bolded 2 lines in your post . Do you not see the conflict in your very words?
Yes we all tend to adjust the Word to fit our theologies.[/QUOTE]No. I see no conflict.

Personal experiences or lack thereof has no bearing on whether something is true or not. The Word confirms that people speak in tongues when initially filled with the Holy Ghost. The biblical record includes at least 3 occasions when this occurred. (Acts 2:2-4, 10:43-48, 19:1-6) As such, this truth is established according to Matt. 18:16, 2 Cor. 13:1.

I see you have a problem with what I expressed concerning the Samaritans conversion experience in Acts 8. I have a sincere question. How do you think Philip knew the group had not received the Holy Ghost?

Evidently I did not express myself clearly. I did not mean receiving the Holy Ghost was an isolated incident. What I was attempting to point out is that what is recorded in John 20:22 is not the baptism of the Holy Ghost. The apostles and others being indwelt by the Holy Ghost occurred in Acts 2:2-4.

@KelbyofGod Are you saying that what's recorded in John 20:22 is the same experience as Acts 2:2-4?

No. (this is where I could have been more clear)

John 20:22 is simply a different wording of Acts 1:4&5 and Luke 24:49. Jesus is commanding them to receive the Holy Ghost once it's poured out.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

Personal experiences or lack thereof has no bearing on whether something is true or not. The Word confirms that people speak in tongues when initially filled with the Holy Ghost. The biblical record includes at least 3 occasions when this occurred. (Acts 2:2-4, 10:43-48, 19:1-6) As such, this truth is established according to Matt. 18:16, 2 Cor. 13:1.

I see you have a problem with what I expressed concerning the Samaritans conversion experience in Acts 8. I have a sincere question. How do you think Philip knew the group had not received the Holy Ghost?[/QUOTE]
Your account of Acts 8 is exactly that, your account. The Word says what is says. Our deciding things had to be this or that does not make it so. Could it be the Holy Spirit had told them they were not yet baptized in the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost, Could it be the preachers before had made a list of who had been baptized in the Name of Father Son and Holy Ghost . The Word does not say. The Word does not tell us.
these bolded lines are a point of agreement. What is actually stated in Acts 8?


I have yet to figure out how the reply and quote things work Hope my posts are not too confusing .

Thank you for the clarification. I sure do appreciate it.

@Wansvic
John 20:23 is simply another wording of the "Go and baptize" portion of those commandments.

He tells them 'whose soever's sins ye remit, they are remitted and whose soever's sins ye retain they are retained" because he's making it clear that if they don't baptize (as they are commanded to) then the peoples' sins will not be remitted...because (as you know) water baptism is a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.


It was when John was baptizing (Mark 1:4, Luke 3:3). It was when Jesus was baptizing (because he made ZERO changes to it as he implemented it during his earthly ministry). and it continued to be for remission of sins when the apostles started implementing it in Acts 2:38

The apostles had already been baptizing the entirety of Jesus earthly ministry.The only change Jesus made before his ascension was telling them to start doing it in HIS name to fulfill Luke 29:47, etc. And only AFTER they receive the promise / are baptized with the Holy Ghost (Which happens in Acts 2:4)

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

Gardenias is not the only person who believes as she said. Again i ask where/what passage says if one does not speak in tongues he is not filled with the Holy Spirit? Lots of discussion lots of theories ideas but no passage to back those ideas.

Over my 75 years i hope to have learned to accept what the Scriptures say. While accepting they do not say everything about every thing. Read here a few times "Jesus did not speak in tongues" I would guess He did not but the Scriptures do not say He did or did not.

"The HS is God and comes when we are born again, just as the Father and Son but he is more." What passage tells us the Holy Spirit is more then the Father and Son?

I said nothing about "worshiping the gifts".

I laid out the biblical statement that speaking in tongues is.... prayer IN THE SPIRIT"... and asked if there are any other biblical statements that say ANY other action qualifies as praying in the spirit.

Love in Jesus,
Kelby

please try not to take my comments personally. Praying in the Spirit is not the same or synonymous with worshiping God in Spirit & Truth.


Please look at what was said in context to my posting, please. I responded to this statement:


"So, with a clear statement that speaking in tongues IS Spirit-prayer (a.k.a. a form of worshiping the Father in Spirit), the question switches to "Now that we've found ONE thing (speaking in tongues) that qualifies as worshiping God in Spirit, can you find a biblical statement (not an assumption) that some other thing is defined as a form of worshiping in Spirit?"

IF NOT, then speaking in tongues remains the only biblically accredited method for true worshipers to worship God in Spirit... and therefore remains a requirement before someone can claim to be a true worshiper. That's why people say it is necessary."

I have given an answer based on what I see as a question(s)
to the above.


"the problem with tongues as being worshiping in the Spirit as the only biblical method is impossible."


Because Jesus did not say God seek those to worship Him in Spirit.

John 4:24 Jesus said, "God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”

Spirit and in Truth. they are both present when Worship is done unto the Lord.


Gifts can be false and duplicated, YET GOD IS NOT MOCKED HE KNOWS FULLY WHO IS OF TRUTH AND A LIE.


Jesus said this to the Samaritan women who got religious with the Lord about worshiping the correct mountain.

Tongues are not the method of true spiritual worship but can be used in bringing worship to God through all the Gifts, not worship of the gifts.

To worship in Spirit and truth is as Jesus said :


John 4;22-

22 You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews 23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him.

what is the true worship of God that HE seeks?

• We worship God because he is God. Period.
• it is done in holiness and obedience
• it is personal and corporate
• it is alone and with the body of Christ
• it is seeking His face and not just HIS hand
• it exposes our sin and causes us to repent
• open our mind to who Jesus is and set us free to surrender to HIM
• worship is Spirit-filled and in line with the word of God
• worship is diverse and dynamic, and humbling

Worship is to God, from our heart, soul, body, and mind with all it is Love to God because of Who HE is and what HE has done:

God has :

1. loved us and gave His only son
2. God has paid the price for our sin
3. God has raised Jesus from the Dead
4. God has SAVE US FROM OUR SIN
5. God has given us eternal life to those who have placed their faith in the Lord Jesus Christ
6. God has empowered the body of Christ with HIS Holy Spirit who is in US and comes upon us.