One taken,one left. The rapture.

FreeGrace2 said:
The only way to prove a pretribulation rapture is to have verses that clearly describe Jesus coming in the clouds with all the dead saints and meeting all the living saints together in the clouds, giving all of them glorified bodies AND THEN taking all of them up to heaven.

Oh wait! We already have this in 1 Thess 4. Except there is NOTHING about Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven.

And we know from Rev 20:5 that the single resurrection of the saved will occur at the end of the Tribulation.

So there you have it. No trip to heaven in a glorified body. And the resurrection is post-tribulation.
Until you show me the clear words that Jesus resurrects and then takes those believers to heaven, you have NO CASE.

2 errors in one sentence!! First, Rev 20:5 actually describes the resurrection of Trib martyrs as the FIRST resurrection. So your continued claim that Rev 20 isn't about resurrection shows how little you grasp what the Bible says clearly.

Second, the "setting" is immediately after the battle of Armageddon. How you come up with your weird notions that it is "way after" Armageddon is really something.

And go ahead and reject the clear teaching that there is ONE resurrection of all believers. 1 Cor 15:23.

And go ahead and just keep embarrassing yourself by the stuff you claim.

I am pretty sure that I have not seen this thread before today.

I have not read anything past the first page - and, have only "skimmed" that.

What I know for sure (am convinced of) is that those who are too caught up in comparing all of the places in scripture where it may be said that a 'taken'/'left' scenario can be applied - will never "get it right" (understand it properly) until they realize that there is no 'rule' or 'pattern' that they all must match.

You are "inventing" needless error.

Each scenario is defined by its context.

If you get too caught up in this kind of cross-context comparison, you will miss the proper conclusion that all of the separate context scenarios - taken together - result in.

Don't get caught up in that.

Interpret each scenario according to its context.

Trying to force them all into a 'parallel' match-up pattern will only rob you of the truth of the larger scope - not to mention, a proper interpretation of one or more of the individual scenarios.

I myself have missed most of TODAY'S posts in this thread , and it appears I'm going to have to back-track a bit in order to get up to speed... (will have to do later, as I am pressed for time, atm!)

Earths atmosphere/clouds is the location of His Return (at first) = Acts ch1

You still have not answered the question: Does the pre-trib rapture occur BEFORE the Resurrection of the Dead in Christ?

GIANTS, sure, totally normal for you. Strange flesh, also normal for you. GOD FLOODING the world because everything was NORMAL. OK, I think that pretty much clears the situation.


5303. Nephilim ►
Strong's Concordance
Nephilim: "giants," name of two peoples, one before the flood and one after the flood
Original Word: נְפִיל
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: Nephilim
Phonetic Spelling: (nef-eel')
Definition: "giants", name of two peoples, one before the flood and one after the flood



2087. heteros ►
Strong's Concordance
heteros: other
Original Word: ἕτερος, α, ον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: heteros
Phonetic Spelling: (het'-er-os)
Definition: other
Usage: (a) of two: another, a second, (b) other, different, (c) one's neighbor.
HELPS Word-studies
2087 héteros – another (of a different kind). 2087 /héteros ("another but distinct in kind") stands in contrast to 243 /állos ("another of the same kind"). 2087 /héteros ("another of a different quality") emphasizes it is qualitatively different from its counterpart (comparison).

[2087 (héteros) sometimes refers to "another" of a different class group or type (as in Plato; Oxy. papyri).]

Well here is Jesus with the bride and that bride is all the saints.
I know you need it to be only one person....but no, it is most likely billions.
One bride, but millions or billions of saints make up one bride.

So it would be TOTALLY CONSISTENT in the virgin parable to illustrate that dynamic with more than one virgin.
Rev 19
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

One wife= millions/ billions

My grand daughter can grasp that

This is just a metaphor. If mankind are divided into two parts: body and soul, what left is body and what shall be taken is soul.

the other left is death, the one shall be taken is life.

We will die on earth, and we will live in heaven.

In other words, if Someone wants save his life with rapture will lose his life.Because no matter what our flesh body will die in this world and our spiritual soul will be reborn.

I hope I have explained it clearly

It says " normal life"

Sorry you can not revieve what is written.
You struggle over it.
It is so simple and clear.
It is as if nobody in america has a normal life in your book because there are 500 gangs in various cities.

( giants were there,In the days before the flood,AS WELL AS normal life and festivities)

The bible declares it.

there is nothing there to indicate what you are suggesting.
It is illustrating half taken, half left behind.

You still don't understand that no one will fly to heaven with the flesh body of the world which is so called rapture.Those who embrace this understanding will eventually face the result of losing their lives, because we will die in this world.This is the inevitable result of the flesh body

I don't have to 'reframe' it at all, ever, cause Noe and Lot have NOTHING to do with pre trib, BECAUSE THERE IS NO PRE TRIB. None of it is true and that is why it doesn't work, and is why everything is backwards. Never does anything read as written even "after the workings of Satan", doesn't even mean 'after the workings of Satan' does it, SOME HOW it REALLY means BOTH before and after.
We see things completely opposite. EVEN WHAT 'NORMAL' IS AND ISN'T. No wonder we DON'T agree on what is 'JUST' and what isn't.

I don't think you even understand how 'belief' in pre trib predestines one into taking the mark of the beast, do you? A great falling away is coming for sure.

Just poppin in here for one more brief comment--as it's all I have time for--regarding the word "after" in the phrase "after the workings of Satan"... this isn't the kind of "after" that is the "before-and-after" KIND of "after". Instead, it is this word:

Strong's Greek: 2596. κατά (kata) -- down, against, according to (biblehub.com) - G2596


[not referring to "sequence" or "order-of-events" here; rather, "according to the workings of Satan"]




g'night all. = )

If you had a scripture that teaches us there are two comings, then you would have posted it. Since there is a is nothing in scripture that teaches anything about a second and third coming of Christ, you have no scripture to back up your unbiblical theory.


There is no “other coming” mentioned.


The coming of the Lord is singular.


The resurrection and rapture occur at the coming of the Lord.


For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
1 Thessalonians 4:15

• that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep

Based on this scripture do you believe the resurrection and rapture occur at His coming?




JPT

This is what i am talking about.
Even when called on it, and i take the time to lead you to it, and take the time to post the verses, you omit it.
That is the pillar of the postrib doctrine. ( pretend the pretrib rapture verses are not there, redirect, reframe, repeat)

This is comical how you reframe noah and lot into something different than what they are, then claim "no foul".

Plain comical
Noah in ark pretrib
Lot removed pretrib.

Postribber foundation= we are removed postrib (after the fire of lots day and the flood of noah..

Massive fail.

You said: "If you get too caught up " and "Don't get caught up in that."

Pun intended??? LOL

Brother Absolutely believes that life during Enoch & Noahs days were just fun-loving hippies getting married.
That God just was not in a good mood and decided to destroy the whole world and just leave 8 to repopulate.

Likewise, today, very few christians understand the Tribulation we are now entering and soon to fulfill the words of Christ, the Apostles and the Prophets.

Didn't the doctrine like this part?
2596 katá (a preposition, governing two grammatical cases) – properly, "down from, i.e. from a higher to a lower plane, with special reference to the terminus (end-point)" (J. Thayer).



Pre trib can't start in 1 Thess because it speaks of those who have 'passed through death and risen', LIKE CHRIST who are returning WITH HIM. THAT CAN'T BE THE CHURCH BECAUSE they didn't die all at the same time, on the same day but it is when the 'church' is gathered. Only ones who spend time in heaven are those who were SAVED before death and rising.

So it is the CHURCH aka the 'alive and remaining' WHO ARE CHANGED and gathered to be in the air with them at the last trump/the 7th/GODS trump and that is when the Lords Day begins, HERE ON EARTH.



It can't be 2 Thess because the DAY being SPOKEN OF is CLEARLY GIVEN US AS BEING

2 Thessalonians 1:4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure (THAT WOULD BE ALL PERSECUTIONS, NOT JUST SOME AS SOME SUGGEST)

5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer ('ALL' being a requirement to be counted worthy of the kingdom of God. Not ALL for some and only SOME for others)

6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you
(TRUTH IS it is because it is a RIGHTEOUS thing to RECOMPENSE tribulation TO THEM. WE HAVE A JOB TO DO. God has a plan and that plan has LAWS. We must take into consideration that the WICKED have to be wicked TO BE SENTENCED FOR BEING WICKED. GOD CAN'T put a murderer to DEATH if he isn't a murderer SO someone needs to be murdered )

7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
(How is THE LORD to be REVEALED? With HIS MIGHTY ANGELS)

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ
(Who do you suppose of those who KNOW NOT GOD do you see as still 'living' on past this moment?)

9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power
(There is an answer to that question. I AM GOING WITH NO BABIES BEING BORN TO THOSE WHO KNOW NOT GOD ANYWHERE PAST THE DAY OF VENGEANCE)

10 When He shall come

to be glorified in His saints,
(NOT WITH BUT IN, AS IN THE 'CHURCH' IS HERE WHEN HE RETURNS AT THE END OF THE TRIBULATION. THIS AGE ENDS WITH THE DESTRUCTION OF SATAN AND HIS KINGDOM, AND THAT IS EXACTLY HOW THE LORDS DAY ENDS ALSO )

and to be admired in all them that believe

(because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

And that 'testimony' requires for 'us', the servants of God, taking the word to the UTTERMOST parts of the earth, to be here, for that to happen


But back to the subject at hand
11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil ALL the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:

12 That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him,

(TAKE NOTICE THAT THERE HAS BEEN NO MENTION OF 'A CHANGE' FROM THE DAY 'WHEN HE COMES WITH HIS ANGELS'. No 'shift in time' no shift in wording, just a CONTINUING ON of the subject at hand, ONE SENTENCE AGO. TO CHANGE IT WOULD BE A SIN)


2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition

THE DAY WE ARE GATHERED TO HIM, IS THE DAY HE returns
"In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ When He shall come to be glorified in His saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.


WHICH 1000% AGREES WITH
Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, THE FIRST ADVENT


AND THE SECOND ADVENT
and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;

3 To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that He might be glorified.


4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,

17 Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.




Do you REALIZE that pre trib requires

THIS TAKE PLACE 1ST

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

SO THAT THIS CAN TAKE PLACE

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

SO THAT THIS CAN TAKE PLACE

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

AGAIN, I AM NOT USING NOAH OR LOT TO REFRAME ANYTHING AS THERE IS NOTHING TO REFRAME AS THERE IS NO PRE TRIB RAPTURE. IT IS A DOCTRINE OF MAN. IT IS A FALSE DOCTRINE, SO I DON'T NEED THEM TO BE REFRAMED TO EITHER MAKE PRE TRIB WORK OR NOT.

NOT ONE PERSON DID GOD USE TO TEACH IT AS A DOCTRINE. NOT ONE PERSON DID GOD USE TO TEACH IT AS A DOCTINE


HERE is what NEEDS TO BE DONE
2 Thessalonians 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

Satan is coming to deceive

CHRIST comes AFTER in FLAMING FIRE with His angels to TAKE VENGEANCE.

That is the order IT IS WRITTEN.

AMEN Brother!! I am sure you are here for the same reason I am my best to make sure this false doctrine doesn't take anyone else. IF we don't put forth the truth, then the lies will win and another soul maybe lost. IF even one soul is saved, it is worth it. And what we receive just makes us

I am not sure that up until computers it could have been proven false as it has been because even with these it is so slippery going from one place to the next without ever addressing, let alone fixing a single issue.

The church 'as a unit/group' (be that singular or plural), is never taken to heaven, ONLY those who have fallen asleep go, so the church can never 'exist/live, reign or rule there or come back as a 'unit/group' except as all those who have died and risen.

That is why that issue is never addressed. We have seen it asked repeatedly with no answers just like all the other questions. ALWAYS back to the same circle. But I think it is to keep us from building upon the foundations laid as we are supposed to. But that isn't working because I have been receiving a lot of new truths lately that have no relation to this but somehow are opening up and I believe it is because of how this makes me SEE HIS WORDS without my thoughts. This may be the best training ever on how to 'rightly divide' the words of God, for me anyhow. And there that is.